arkhos94

Should we make Point cost a public information ?

79 posts in this topic

Today, point cost are a private information...but everyone (or nearly) has a smartphone/tablet with an infinity army ap/a list building ap or an internet acess to go on infinity army

As a result, if your opponent want to know how much cost one of your trooper, he just has to ask you its equipement and  go on infinity army/his ap to check

The same, if he want to see you list with army point cost, he then just has to redo it.

 

I understand for SWC cost has there is an SWC tax on some "private" thing like making your trooper a lieutenant but i can't think of a similar case with points cost.

 

So what's the point of keeping point cost a private information ?

Any thought on the subject ?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So tgat we can immedietly deduct AD and HD?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly don't get why people get so caught up with this. 

I think generally players should freely divulge approx costs of models as it relates to controlling zones and giving their opponent an appreciation of the model potency. +/- 3-5 points.

Beyond that you just don't need to know the exact cost, unless you're trying to figure out hidden information which I find pretty bad taste. If you can do it in your head, that's fine because it won't always be perfect and it's one more thing to keep bouncing on there. but don't friggen rebuild my list. You just don't need to to be a good player.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Executive Order and Chain of Command?

Aren't they open skills?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Solar said:

Aren't they open skills?

No, both have the Private Information tag. 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, inane.imp said:

If someone asks the points or SWC value of a trooper I tell them the generic answer (ie Moiras are 30pts / 0SWC unless they're the Lt and then they're 1SWC). But that's different from making points/SWC costs open information (this specific Moira is 1SWC).

The first is discussing openly available information, the second is discussing my list and is private information.

By far the most sensible approach.

There are enough scenarios where each player need to have more points than their opponent in a particular zone or on a particular objective. Why waste time and make them look stuff up? Who would want to win because their opponent couldn't remember the exact points value of a unit?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phlyk said:

Who would want to win because their opponent couldn't remember the exact points value of a unit?

They decided to count points, they made a mistake, they lost because of it, I don't see a problem. Or, they could do what people did before they learned the approximate costs - just assume the possibility of AD and HD units and prepare tactics/DZ defense accordingly.

ed: Oh, you mentioned zone scoring. In that case I'd just make sure I have a margin of error by putting more of my points/units in a zone, so the scoring doesn't rely on the opponent's TO camo infiltrator specialist being 3 points more expensive than my TO camo infiltrator specialist equivalent.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Col said:

No, both have the Private Information tag. 

Ah yes! Cool!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Daboarder said:

everyone has access to a tape measure as well but we dont have pre-measuring.

 

its essentially the same reason for pts cost reall.

I'm pretty sure you don't measure whatever you want anytime you want in this game. Nothing stops you from using army though.

So, costs being private info does jack to hide your AD/HD troops. It can, however, mask your actually private things, provided you can provide enough mixup material (holo, camo, AD/HD etc.). 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Barrogh said:

I'm pretty sure you don't measure whatever you want anytime you want in this game. Nothing stops you from using army though.

So, costs being private info does jack to hide your AD/HD troops. It can, however, mask your actually private things, provided you can provide enough mixup material (holo, camo, AD/HD etc.). 

private and being a twat stops you reconstructing lists. anyway, if you actually "need" to reconstruct a list you are probably getting crumped by the guy thats able to remember that stuff anyway.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Barrogh said:

Nothing stops you from using army though.

 

I mean, etiquette.

Right?

Are we willing to do anything not technically against the rules?

There has to be a limit to what we'd be willing to do even if it's legal. If you are against a sensitive player would you try to demoralize them? I could get tons of wins that way, I have to try the reverse to keep the game going.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While Chain of Command and Executive Order can be worked around either by altering the rules or points costs slightly, what Eciu wrote means public point costs means this gets impractical - however, I'd like to add that making points costs public also messes with future skills that might need to be private. Should these potential skills be strong enough to be more powerful than Executive Order, then you run into other problems. What if Strategos became private? It's certainly too potent a skill to be free, but playing with open points costs would make the private nature be unmanageable unless the same unit had two or more profiles with different private skills that all have the same point cost.

It would, however, be nice if points costs and list reconstruction* were handled to a greater extent by the rules.

* Handling reconstruction similar to pre-measure would mean actually writing a rule which says writing points costs down or constructing a list beyond the courtesy list (filling in missing profiles) during a game is against the rules. Doing it in your head would be similar to having a good eye for estimating ranges, while looking profiles and costs or asking for them would be like looking at the MOV value of a model and the Range value of their gun.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd honestly want more to be labeled Private Information – e.g. why is it, that opponents get to know, what type of mine is deployed – from the open information mine deploying troop profile – but the same mine is deployed as camo marker – secret information.

I find, that courtesy lists serve a good purpose in giving opponents a reference to troop profiles, they might not be familiar with, and thus minimizing the need for asking questions. But if they become a tool to outplay your opponents, decipher their secrets and try to gain an upper hand, through devoting tons of time to memorize army lists and troop profiles – or combing through lists for hidden secrets – then, what is a pretty cool game of skirmish tactics, become a game of two accountants guessing numbers.

..and seriously, life is too short to be an accountant, when you can direct power armored androids to fight space werewolves and fry peoples mind with computer games ;)

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

I'd honestly want more to be labeled Private Information – e.g. why is it, that opponents get to know, what type of mine is deployed – from the open information mine deploying troop profile – but the same mine is deployed as camo marker – secret information.

That could be something as simple as "Guilangs have never been observed to deploy anything but the basic antipersonnel mine" in an intelligence briefing.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

I'd honestly want more to be labeled Private Information – e.g. why is it, that opponents get to know, what type of mine is deployed – from the open information mine deploying troop profile – but the same mine is deployed as camo marker – secret information.

Opponents know what type of Mine is being put down because you have to declare what Skills a trooper is performing, and all the Mine types have different Skills. Even if the type of Mines was private on the unit profile the opponent would know what's getting placed...

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Opponents know what type of Mine is being put down because you have to declare what Skills a trooper is performing, and all the Mine types have different Skills. Even if the type of Mines was private on the unit profile the opponent would know what's getting placed...

I think we have a new strong participant in a tournament of "most often ignored/forgotten" rule ever ;P

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hardly. It comes up whenever Coordinated Orders get discussed.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Hardly. It comes up whenever Coordinated Orders get discussed.

So deploying different kind of mines are sepearte skills? And you cannot coordinate deploying Antipersonal and E/Mauler?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Opponents know what type of Mine is being put down because you have to declare what Skills a trooper is performing, and all the Mine types have different Skills. Even if the type of Mines was private on the unit profile the opponent would know what's getting placed...

Thanks for clearing that up – but my point still stands, disregarding. There isn't much point in making a separate Mono-/Viral-/AP/Whatever mine skill, when troops rarely bring a vast selection of mines with them, and the ensuing token placed is a catch-all camo marker.

-

Then you might retaliate and say, that it is a deliberate decision by designers to make it open information, but as I started out saying, then it is my opinion, that the game doesn't need all this information to be open, and so I'm fully aware, that I disagree with the designers in that respect.

As a general rule, the only point I see in having open information is, that you're working on the assumption, that players cheat, and so you'll need to be able to check up on your opponents. While I play on the assumption, that people do not cheat and so can be trusted with a little secrecy. Right now though it seems a bit random, what is open and what is private.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Hardly. It comes up whenever Coordinated Orders get discussed.

I was specificly saying that one should now which item is being placed due to obligation of enemy to word the skill used, instead of something which I (and from my observation all other local players) do of "so this guy has Antipersonall Mines on his equipment or something funky?". 

38 minutes ago, Niebieskooki said:

So deploying different kind of mines are sepearte skills? And you cannot coordinate deploying Antipersonal and E/Mauler?

Yes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think private information is an absolutely awesome mechanic and other games could benefit from adding it.

Imo point costs should not be open, and while it is very easy to use my phone to find out I'd NEVER even dream of doing that. I recently had an opponent at a tournament do just that and it annoyed me greatly. Just like when a buddy tried to find out which my Lt was in another game by checking profiles in his app.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BlackCadian said:

Just like when a buddy tried to find out which my Lt was in another game by checking profiles in his app.

I'm a bit at odds with this one, despite being a proponent of more Private Information – but I consider it a nice gentlemanly approach to point out, which of your models could be a potential lieutenant – since this is already open and available information, and everyone could just familiarize themselves with the various army lists, and make an educated guess.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites