BlackCadian

Scariest fireteams

56 posts in this topic

I find core fireteams really annoying to deal with. It's not because of one specific bonus, it's the stacking of all together, that can forgive even mistakes. For example, if my opponent forget to protect his back when I clearly have an AD, he will pay it hard. But vs a fireteam, even in the back, he will still have a B2 return fire without penalty thanks to SSL2, or a free dodge.

In fact, plenty things become weaker vs a fireteam. CH or CH:TO are still providing their bonuses (unless MSV ofc), but MSV/smoke or non MSV/white noise don't, surprise shoots don't either. Some weapons that are supposed to be hard hitting becomes really weaker vs a fireteam due to +3 BS +1 B. A MSR is barery unusable vs a fireteam unless a really great range advantage, because you're opposing B2 with B2. So we often pay 40+ pts and 1,5SWC for a single wound CH:TO sniper who often has only average BS, just to see him having less than 50% chances, providing only the target can shoot back.

And core fireteams are not expensives, they cost the very same as all these single models ... At least haris have to use a specific profile with 0.5 SWC ...

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1 hour ago, Nenyx said:

In fact, plenty things become weaker vs a fireteam. CH or CH:TO are still providing their bonuses (unless MSV ofc), but MSV/smoke or non MSV/white noise don't, surprise shoots don't either. Some weapons that are supposed to be hard hitting becomes really weaker vs a fireteam due to +3 BS +1 B. A MSR is barery unusable vs a fireteam unless a really great range advantage, because you're opposing B2 with B2. So we often pay 40+ pts and 1,5SWC for a single wound CH:TO sniper who often has only average BS, just to see him having less than 50% chances, providing only the target can shoot back.

This is not 100% true.

I have recently dismantled a core fireteam by using smoke+MSV to make sure they could only ARO one model at a time. A MSR still deals 2 potential wounds per hit, and this against a core of LI or MI is pretty dangerous. Of course, it is more dangerous because it's 2 dice vs 2 dice, but I don't think the Sniper is 'barely unusable'

In fact, this type of thinking often leads people to overly evaluate their fireteams. The only thing I find difficult to deal with against fireteams is facing multiples of them (Tohaa and Steel Phalanx, basically), but I think this is more of a personal limitation than an actual strength of those armies.

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Well, when you are the one using an order (or even more since you are using smoke or white noise) and you have lower success chances than your opponent, I do call this "barely unusable".

A standard CH:TO sniper has BS 11 and B2. Since I play Aleph I have either the MK2 at BS 13, or the expensive Dasyu at BS12. Now, since surprise shot is unusable, I will shoot at best B2, BS +3 for range, -3 for cover, whereas my opponent will be B2, BS +3 core team -3 cover -6 TO +/- ? range . If my enemy has any form of mimetism or MSV and the same range than I do (like missile launcher or sniper), he will have the very same modifiers than me. Or if it is an elite fireteam with superior BS (like knights), he will outdo me. But i'm the one using an order, or even several in case I need some preparation (smoke/white noise/moving in a position to have only one opponent). It is even worse when using MSV2 snipers, because most of them don't have any form of defensive modifiers (not everyone has nisses ...) and you may find yourself naked behind your smoke, effectively giving your opponent a good chance of killing one of your most expensive and troublesome troop.

Of course, core fireteams can be fought and won, but I dont like when a game mecanism prevent some options that should not be bad by themselves. As for my example, I don't see why an ambush sniper shooting at a platoon without any form of visor would be in a disadvantage just because they are a platoon. I mean, the very same 5 troops unlinked would just be free targets for the sniper, but just because they are linked, he has more chance of losing than winning.

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39 minutes ago, Nenyx said:

A standard CH:TO sniper has BS 11 and B2. Since I play Aleph I have either the MK2 at BS 13, or the expensive Dasyu at BS12. Now, since surprise shot is unusable, I will shoot at best B2, BS +3 for range, -3 for cover, whereas my opponent will be B2, BS +3 core team -3 cover -6 TO +/- ? range . If my enemy has any form of mimetism or MSV and the same range than I do (like missile launcher or sniper), he will have the very same modifiers than me. Or if it is an elite fireteam with superior BS (like knights), he will outdo me. But i'm the one using an order, or even several in case I need some preparation (smoke/white noise/moving in a position to have only one opponent). It is even worse when using MSV2 snipers, because most of them don't have any form of defensive modifiers (not everyone has nisses ...) and you may find yourself naked behind your smoke, effectively giving your opponent a good chance of killing one of your most expensive and troublesome troop.

Again, not 100% true. There is a rough 50/50 division between BS12 and BS11 for CH:TO models with sniper rifles, with your own examples using more than a base 11.

And using your own example fails to consider that when it's your turn, you choose the engagements. It's very hard for a fireteam to have all around heavy weapons (although I've seen it happen, and it was super hard to dislodge the team, but not impossible). So why not whittle down the team by targeting a combi-rifle first rather than the Missile launcher? Again, if you have smoke and MSV, you can do that. Same if you have TO and move about. Yes, it takes more orders than just point and shoot, but it's still doable, and doesn't make the MSR an useless weapon.

A team of Knights with a missile launcher won't outdo a single Dasyu/Spetkr/Malignos shooting from cover in terms of raw stats. The knights will be at BS14+6 (+3 distance, +3 fireteam) - 9 (-3 cover, -6 TO) against the Dasyu at BS12+3(distance)-3(Cover). That all equates to two dice at 12 for the Dasyu vs two dice at 11 for the knights (9 if it's a magister). Those aren't horrible odds considering you're pitching a 40 something points model against a 100+ points behemoth.

The fireteams I see as being way more dangerous are the ones that can stack other modifiers on top of the fireteam ones. Bagh Maris and Rodoks with mimetism, Riot Grrls with MSV to deny some bonuses, they're all very dangerous, and against those maybe using a CH:TO sniper wouldn't be the best move, but I do think you have to consider more uses for those skills and weapons than simply 'I shoot you with a big gun'.

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I'm with @Nenyx.  if your sniper is able to take down Combi Rifle support members first, your opponent has woefully misdeployed.\

I'd also consider two dice at 12s vs two dice at 11s (or even two dice at 9s) to be appalling odds for an active turn engagement, especially with a 30-50 point piece, and especially since eating a hit from that kind of weaponry means losing your investment.  Those are never odds I'd accept in the active turn unless I was desperate.  

If someone initiated that gunfight against me, I'd be thrilled.  Something like a Magister has little chance of dying in one order to that kind of threat, letting you soak your opponent's Order, fall back into cover with your model preserved, and maybe even kill/crit a valuable TO Sniper while your opponent's pouring Orders into trying to stop you.  That's exactly the kind of favorable exchange that defensive link teams are happy to participate in... Low margin F2F rolls, with a high chance of survival for your troops, and a respectable chance of obliterating your opponent's active turn piece after he's spent multiple Orders trying to engage you.

For something like Magisters, they aren't directly imposing negative modifiers like Rodoks are Bagh Mari are, but they're still playing with the numbers through virtue of having multiple Wounds.  2 Wounds and V:Courage gives them tremendous control over how long they can contest the opponent's turn without exposing themselves to too much risk. 

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B2 at 12 vs B2 at 11 is a gamble at best. If you're throwing a 12 pts disposable mini from your second group, it's quite an interresting rate. But if you're talking about something that is among your best combat piece and could easily handle a bunch of regular opponents (ie: not in core team), why just risk it on such a bad matchup ? And remember, YOU are the one using an order for that, meaning that you are giving your opponent a free shot with good chances of success by wasting your own order pool.

And that's exactly the problem here. All B1/B2 weapons are overall bad vs fireteams (ofc there are exceptions, I sure would be willing to trade a naga BSG if he can shoot and hope to hit 2 or 3 minis). HMG and other high burst weapons may be fine, but low burst heavy hitting weapons are not. Especially when theses weapons are on troops that are bad at ARO (example Atalanta), which means you can't use your troop being either the active or the reactive turn. And even so, HMG have a decent risk of being just wipped out. Even HI or TAG are not safe at all from a B2 missile launcher ... One of my usual opponent plays PanO (vanilla and sectorials), and I must say his fireteams loaded with missile launchers and multi rifle (he loves DA ARO) are just that brutal. A single mistake or just bad luck and your mini may end beyond all possible recovery. Of course we can deal with it (after all, I have a slightly positive win ratio vs him) but sadly it's either with high burst weapons or indirect fight (hackers or by focus on objectives), because fireteams renders unlinked low burst weapons too dangerous to use.

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Yeah one reason I actually play my JSA is less is because of the mixed fireteams for their HI.

I really loved fielding 5 Haramaki with missiles, contenders and blitzens.  Opening turns, those Blitzens and Missiles were amazing for contesting long lanes.  In the late game, you advance the team up to defend objectives in the Contender rangeband.  Very cheap and simple way to use the team, and every order that the opponent spent against them was a huge statistical risk of losing a valuable piece.  They required virtually zero Orders to do their job as well, which meant you could fuel bikes, ninja or rui shi to roam the midfield and make aggressive pushes.

Adding in the short-range focus of Domaru actually dilutes that plan and splits the focus of the team.  Haramaki did get some cool things like light shotguns to help compensate for the change in role, but in my mind it actually detracted from what the fireteam was best at.  Now they're often buying 5 bodies just to add +1 Burst, +3 BS to a spitfire... Which, as was referenced earlier in this thread, is a pretty big statistical waste on a Burst 4 weapon.

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15 hours ago, Section 9 said:

I totally forgot about Link Garous.  Cypherkk regularly kicked my ass with those!

 

You need bigger nail clippers.  Like an Autocannon or HRMC.  Only ran a Gecko Duo once, they got hammered by Tankhunters.

I play FRRM USAriadan and Tohaa, no HRMC or Autocannons, got an APHMG but that didn't have a model until after my brother went back to school 

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18 hours ago, mr.stubber said:

I have quite the opposite.

Seems you forgot to bring along a smoke, which is pretty much the  biggest ariadnan weakness (And a sensor or two).

And never, ever try to rambos.

Yeah, smoke is a bit lacking in my Nomad Boarding Party (all models with Zero-Gee Terrain skill, not a single smoke grenade to be found!).

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12 hours ago, Barakiel said:

Yeah one reason I actually play my JSA is less is because of the mixed fireteams for their HI.

I really loved fielding 5 Haramaki with missiles, contenders and blitzens.  Opening turns, those Blitzens and Missiles were amazing for contesting long lanes.  In the late game, you advance the team up to defend objectives in the Contender rangeband.  Very cheap and simple way to use the team, and every order that the opponent spent against them was a huge statistical risk of losing a valuable piece.  They required virtually zero Orders to do their job as well, which meant you could fuel bikes, ninja or rui shi to roam the midfield and make aggressive pushes.

Adding in the short-range focus of Domaru actually dilutes that plan and splits the focus of the team.  Haramaki did get some cool things like light shotguns to help compensate for the change in role, but in my mind it actually detracted from what the fireteam was best at.  Now they're often buying 5 bodies just to add +1 Burst, +3 BS to a spitfire... Which, as was referenced earlier in this thread, is a pretty big statistical waste on a Burst 4 weapon.

It's a bit interesting how the solution to make the Domaru matter in a faction containing Haramaki was to mash their fireteams together. I don't think the Spitfire is a statistical waste, it is a very important weapon for when you use that fireteam aggressively, but it is sat on the Domaru platform and I can't help but feel that it would have been more optimally placed on the Haramaki platform which would have essentially added +1 BS for -4 price tag - plus the reckless high burst weapons simply work better when put on a solo-impetuous model and would make a Spitfire Haramaki decidedly less odd than the Missile Launcher Haramaki.

I don't think the Domaki team is a bad concept, but I do often wish I had access to pure Haramaki teams almost as much as I miss not having Haris access for Celestial Guards in ISS. The old Haramaki team of early N3 was considerably scarier to face than the new Domaki one, even if the Spitfire makes the team theoretically better for active use.

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Hospitallers

BS20 burst 5 HMG with SSL2 is one of the scariest things I have ever gone against

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On 8/11/2017 at 5:17 PM, BrotherSmoke said:

Hospitallers

BS20 burst 5 HMG with SSL2 is one of the scariest things I have ever gone against

The trouble is, that it isn’t much more of threat than a B17 B4 HMG. 

Fireteams offensively aren’t much different from TAGs. Going at them headon will in most cases be an uphill struggle. But once you outmaneuver them, trap them with cheap templates and mines, and whittle down their supporting members, they are much more manageable - but I wouldn’t expect any less than a struggle, when people pay half an army for a HI team. 

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If you are being pinned down, especially by an enemy sniper, snipers aren't a good option for killing them. That's not what they're for. If you aren't getting the -3 BS from range on the enemy you are probably using the wrong tool.

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6 hours ago, Loricus said:

If you aren't getting the -3 BS from range on the enemy you are probably using the wrong tool.

I'd be happy to actively shoot an Intruder MSR using my buffed Unidron fireteam plasma sniper. Or does that not really count as a sniper?

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2 hours ago, Jujoji said:

I'd be happy to actively shoot an Intruder MSR using my buffed Unidron fireteam plasma sniper. Or does that not really count as a sniper?

I think what's implied is that an unlinked sniper vs an unlinked sniper is a pretty narrow margin for success.

Linking a plasma sniper, then buffing it with marksmanship, are both pretty significant increases in performance and accuracy.  I think that's a good example of what link teams can offer, vs an unlinked Unidron Sniper doing the same thing.

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Scariest fireteam?  PanO Fusilier Core with HMG and ML.  Wildcats with HRL are a close second, but they are more rivals to my Odalisques than an actual threat.

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6 hours ago, Jujoji said:

I'd be happy to actively shoot an Intruder MSR using my buffed Unidron fireteam plasma sniper. Or does that not really count as a sniper?

Fireteams transform low B weapons. When you're 2 vs. 1 B you need a big BS swing or you get hit back a lot.

 

Some factions are good at doing that with stuff like smoke or white noise or surprise shots. All canceled by Fireteams which is very frustrating for a faction like mine. I can't repurpose the wrong tool.

Basically I need to have a redundant ability to kill fireteam AROs because I can't use the wrong thing. It takes up more of my list thought than TAGs, Dog Warriors, Impersonators or TO, if my tool fails for those I can manage with other things. And Line Troop Fireteams are more common than any of those.

It wouldn't bother me if only certain factions like Onyx and PanO sects. had it but so many have access and it is so easy to take that it shows up more than any other element, even TO. I'd take overkill counters for them until people stopped being predictable but I haven't found anything I have access to that works more than just okay.

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To me, the scariest fireteam is a 5-man link of Bolts. Because I've tried to make them work many times and still they're out performed by a significantly cheaper yet more effective fusilier link. Yet... I just can't let them go. Even after back-to-back underwhelming performances. Something about those evil sexy Bolts make them so spell-binding that I just can't leave them in the box without feeling immense, devastating remorse. 

Their seductive pull sure is scary...

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I assure you, the scariest part in all this is that I'm still not a hater. Still in love despite all the bad experiences. Still a fanatic B)

 

 

boltmeme.jpg

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23 hours ago, Shoitaan said:

Because I've tried to make them work many times and still they're out performed by a significantly cheaper yet more effective fusilier link.

Let me guess....

You're using them as a cheerleaders/backlines aren't you?

They're quite effective as an aggresive midfield, as my experience can tell. One of my friend use them frequently.

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39 minutes ago, mr.stubber said:

Let me guess....

You're using them as a cheerleaders/backlines aren't you?

They're quite effective as an aggresive midfield, as my experience can tell. One of my friend use them frequently.

Hah no. They're far too expensive to be cheerleaders, I'm not sure why anyone would think to use them as such.

I learned the hard way that they just don't have what it takes to hang out in the back field with their weapon loadouts. I use a toolbox list and try to get them to mid-field but I've had insanely poor performances from them. They either don't end up doing much while the locusts/BFs and other standalone pieces become MVPs or they get splattered trying to do ~things~. Mind you my last 3 games with them were all vs US Ariadna which were incidentally my first 3 games vs Ariadna so it's entirely possible that I just don't know how to play against spam factions. But it was fun having the bio-immunity finally be useful for once (shock) :)

I've posted this list in the forums sometime last year but here it is again. Most of my experiences with the bolts comes from this list or slight variations of this list. The only thing that's performed worse than the bolts in this list is the peacemaker which I acknowledge, I just don't seemt to know how to use because I always lose it in Turn 1 without it achieving anything :*(
Surprisingly Bipandra has done more towards being useful in this list than the bolts. Although I do enjoy my burst 2 drop bear throwing.

But lets not get side-tracked. This thread is about fireteams not another argument about Bolts. I really love the bolts but I think I'm just too inexperienced with them or something because the best I've done with them is a draw (where' I'm down to 2 models and they're down to 13 and I've triggered retreat which ends the game early preventing them from scoring more points...). But I stand by my previous 'joke'. They're scary in a way because even though I can't get them to work, I keep relentlessly trying because I want them to be everything my imagination tells me they are. 

 

logo_104.png Rapid Control Bolts
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  
logo_3.pngBOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
logo_3.pngBOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_3.pngBOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_3.pngBOLT Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
logo_3.pngBOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
logo_4.pngHEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27)
logo_26.pngBLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
logo_21.pngBIPANDRA Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
logo_17.pngPALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_9.pngDEVA Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  
logo_24.pngLOCUST Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Drop Bears / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_16.pngPEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
 sep.giflogo_16.pngAUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
logo_1.pngAUXILIA Lieutenant Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
 sep.giflogo_1.pngAUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)

5 SWC | 298 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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The scariest link-team is the one in the hands of a proficient player. 

That being said, HI is usually much scarier, especially with 4+ members. SSL2 is obnoxious in how much it ups user survivability. 

Domaru-Haramaki are probably the all-round scariest with good ARO weapons, lots of wounds, and a very reliable method of nuking opposing HI/TAGS with E/M. 

Riot Grrls are also ridiculously good with MSV1 and and HyperDynamics. They can be ridiculously hard to shift. 

What else... 

Kaplan used to be beasts back when they could fill out the team with Hafza on the cheap. 

Odalisques are still very good, but more fragile nowadays with more shock ammo out there. 

Linkable Nisses are going to be a real bitch to deal with some day. 

 

How about weak links?

Sekban, Druze, Bolts... Who else needs love?

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2 hours ago, Jassal2.0 said:

How about weak links?

Sekban, Druze, Bolts... Who else needs love?

Sekban are doing fine these days IMO. They are still a MI link, true, but they are very survivable with ARM 3. I use them more in a Haris role myself, but I had a few cases where they totally owned the day.

Druze tend to be a bit of a Swiss Army Knife, so they are kinda pricey (for what they do). Once they get updated, regarding the loadouts (because let's face it: the new Druze box is what, December release? And its contets don't really fit the existing equipment avaialbe to Druze... save for the Outrage Mission Pack Druze), we'll have to rethink them.

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Tohaa's Fireteams are not particulary scary, being only three-man Fireteams.

Buth when you deploy 3 Fireteams, each having it's own dedicated shooter, one specialist and one member for lying smoke, and you still have lots of remaining points for ANOTHER deffensive Fireteam and even some extra support troops... well THAT is scary.

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