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Is the Swiss Hacker still better than the regular multi rifle?

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I'm about to build my Beyond Swiss with a spare multi rifle to round out my profile options.

A few years ago I'd have modeled it as a hacker, but with Killer Hackers around and ITS not requiring specialists so much is that still worth it?

Obviously I can use it as the other too, but I want to model it for the one I'll use more.

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KHDs can be scary, but Swiss has the additional protection of Hidden Deployment and marker state. It's often useful to have a tough specialist like that, especially if you can deal with enemy Killer Hackers before activating the Swiss.

It also depends on actual mission choice for a given game or tournament.

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If I have spare points I would definetly go with hacker. Extra specialist ia always good.

He is hard to kill and can give a hard time to enemy hackers

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Wait, Swiss Guard don't get KHDs?  Hac Tao do!  Guess I'm too used to thinking of Swiss and Hac Tao being copy/pastes of each other...

 

But I'd still make the hacker version.  I got a second Daofei and converted him into a hacker.

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2 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Wait, Swiss Guard don't get KHDs?  Hac Tao do!  Guess I'm too used to thinking of Swiss and Hac Tao being copy/pastes of each other...

 

But I'd still make the hacker version.  I got a second Daofei and converted him into a hacker.

Unfortunately not, our beloved Swiss Guard doesn't have a KHD profile, CB hates us XD.

But we've the Hexa B)

 

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20 hours ago, TaHu said:

If I have spare points I would definetly go with hacker. Extra specialist ia always good.

Spare points? What are they? Ah, I remember, a strange side effect of ten order lists.

19 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Wait, Swiss Guard don't get KHDs?  Hac Tao do!  Guess I'm too used to thinking of Swiss and Hac Tao being copy/pastes of each other...

As usual, PanO get +1BS and the other troop gets unusual profiles and additional capabilities (in this case a Direct Template). It's the usual comparison, whatever you think of that (please don't turn this into a moaning thread).

 

More seriously, I see the consensus seems to be that hacker is still worth it. Thank you.

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I find the notion of being "still worth" rather funny to be honest. :) The Swiss Assault Hacker dominates every HI and TAG (besides the unhackable Avatar and Ariadna in general) in the game in addition to being one of the toughest specialists (remember: TO markers can't be hacked). And I don't know if you only play direct action ITS missions but in my last 20 ITS games/tournaments I had 3 missions where I didn't need specialists.

I'd rather replace the basic MULTI Rifle profile with two Hexas or a Hexa and a Black Friar though. The MULTI Rifle by itself is rather order hungry and not very efficient compared to the other profiles (short range vs long range or utility).

When I was playing PanO during the last season I was almost entirely going for NeoTerra with the Swiss Guard HMG+ML combination or the Swiss Guard HMG+AHD.

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For killing the HMG or the ML are better than the Multi. The range band make you come too close for comfort and spend a orders getting there.... 
The AHD is the only odd duck, you have to be careful of KHD, but thats the same even with your own KHD. This one can move with STEALTH, has surprise attack, can be a token TO the inactive turn,  even if for some reason it comes out you still have a good BTS, 2 wounds and Carbonite to ARO (nothing to sneeze at), plus now with the possible AHD ARO you have a way to bully any HI or TAG of your enemy.

KHD is good, but not the be all end all, not against this guy.

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I play a lot of games using NCA, and the Swiss Hacker is a staple unit choice.  

Between Hidden Deployment, Stealth, TO Camo state, BTS6, AVA3 Fugazi with a Hexa KHD for backup... There's no reason the Swiss should be overly be afraid of Killer Hacking Devices.  

The Swiss has many layers of defense for protecting itself against Killer Hacking Devices, and being able to have a Swiss as a Specialist is worth its weight in gold.

If you want to use the Swss' AHD but are afraid of KHDs... Simply don't reveal if you don't think the risk is worth the reward.  The Camo state is the game's greatest protection for Hackable targets. 

Also, don't forget that Repeaters are a great tool too.  Get a Fugazi up the table to control a bottleneck, and let your opponent face the risk that you might have an Assault Hacker somewhere.  Even if he moves a KHD into your Repeater's range, your Swiss is safe in the Marker state.  If your opponent is maneuvering with both KHDs and hackable targets because he's worried about your Assault Hacker, he's just spend additional Orders to guard against an ARO that you still have control over.  You've projected the threat, without even revealing or making a Hacking roll.

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On 13/11/2017 at 8:39 AM, Commoner1 said:

I find the notion of being "still worth" rather funny to be honest. :) The Swiss Assault Hacker dominates every HI and TAG (besides the unhackable Avatar and Ariadna in general) 

Avatar is immune to Possession, not hacking! Immobilising it so you can burn off the ODD or hit it with a Missile or two isn't a bad tactic! 

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IMO, the real down side to both the Swiss Guard and Hac Tao is the lack of Infiltration. 

 

I'd much rather start an assault hacker halfway up the table, hence why I love my Daofei and converted my second Beyond Daofei into a hacker.

On the other hand, if the Hac Tao had infiltration you'd never take the Daofei, even though the Hac Tao would be 16 points more expensive (Daofei AHD is 59 points, Hac Tao AHD is 70, and infiltration is 5).

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On 13/11/2017 at 5:27 PM, Barakiel said:

I play a lot of games using NCA, and the Swiss Hacker is a staple unit choice.  

Between Hidden Deployment, Stealth, TO Camo state, BTS6, AVA3 Fugazi with a Hexa KHD for backup... There's no reason the Swiss should be overly be afraid of Killer Hacking Devices.  

The Swiss has many layers of defense for protecting itself against Killer Hacking Devices, and being able to have a Swiss as a Specialist is worth its weight in gold.

If you want to use the Swss' AHD but are afraid of KHDs... Simply don't reveal if you don't think the risk is worth the reward.  The Camo state is the game's greatest protection for Hackable targets. 

Also, don't forget that Repeaters are a great tool too.  Get a Fugazi up the table to control a bottleneck, and let your opponent face the risk that you might have an Assault Hacker somewhere.  Even if he moves a KHD into your Repeater's range, your Swiss is safe in the Marker state.  If your opponent is maneuvering with both KHDs and hackable targets because he's worried about your Assault Hacker, he's just spend additional Orders to guard against an ARO that you still have control over.  You've projected the threat, without even revealing or making a Hacking roll.

Totally agree, personally I still use my AHD Swiss, although with the new model, the HMG version intrigues me more. But it's not a great problem, they're are AVA 2 XD.

I saw that KHD are always present in many lists and very often there's a lack of AHD, my Knights thank my opponents XD.

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Yeah the Swiss is good incentive to actually use an AHD on the table.  It makes the Swiss into a Specialist, is arguably the most well-protected AHD in the game, and AVA3 Fugazi, a linked Fusilier Hacker, and a Hexa KHD fit pretty comfortably into any list and provide great Hacking versatility and coverage.

It's easy for players to forget what a pain AHDs are until they have one bogging down their advance.  

I converted an assault Hacker from the new Swss HMG.  I had an extra Akalis Hacker, and did a simple handswap by removing the sword and adding the Akalis Hacking hand.  Then I clipped off the HMG (everything forward of the stock, and I kept the hand and trigger assembly intact.)  I smoothed all that down, and then took the ORC MULTI rifle from the Ice Storm box and put it into place.  Then I greenstuffed a Hacking visor on the faceplate for that distinctive look.

It was pretty quick, and now I have both an HMG and a Hacker in the new style.

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20 hours ago, Col said:

Avatar is immune to Possession, not hacking! Immobilising it so you can burn off the ODD or hit it with a Missile or two isn't a bad tactic! 

Yeah, I mixed up the skills of the Avatar. The Sepsitor strikes so much fear into my feeble mind that I it equated with "NEVER EVER EVEN TOUCH HIS ZOC AND DON'T BOTHER HACKING IT" (all caps is intentional in this case).

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Just now, Commoner1 said:

Yeah, I mixed up the skills of the Avatar. The Sepsitor strikes so much fear into my feeble mind that I it equated with "NEVER EVER EVEN TOUCH HIS ZOC AND DON'T BOTHER HACKING IT" (all caps is intentional in this case).

Hack it through a Bulleteer's repeater, then hurl an Auxbot at it, that's my tactic! 

Or play Ariadna, much less to fear from Sepsitor then! 

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Is it just me, or does the Assault Hacking Device (regardless of carrier) come with a tax of KHD to protect it from enemy KHDs?

 

1 hour ago, Col said:

Hack it through a Bulleteer's repeater, then hurl an Auxbot at it, that's my tactic! 

Or play Ariadna, much less to fear from Sepsitor then! 

JSA works, too.  Doesn't have as much fire as Ariadna does, though.

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I'd like to ask an off-topic but still relevant question now that OP feels his question was answered. If you sadly could only bring one, who would you bring for long range fire support. Mostly ARO duty with only minimal orders spent to remove threats.
Swiss ML
Swiss HMG
Aquilia HMG + whatever the savings buy you.

I have a 10 order list in mind with a TAG

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3 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Is it just me, or does the Assault Hacking Device (regardless of carrier) come with a tax of KHD to protect it from enemy KHDs?

A killer hacker or just normal board control. Since my first army's PanO I always try to dominate the table and dictate where my opponent can go, so killer hackers are can be dealt with by guns, at last if I see them coming. They're a threat, but I don't feel like they force me to bring my own.

 

1 hour ago, Shoitaan said:

I'd like to ask an off-topic but still relevant question now that OP feels his question was answered. If you sadly could only bring one, who would you bring for long range fire support. Mostly ARO duty with only minimal orders spent to remove threats.
Swiss ML
Swiss HMG
Aquilia HMG + whatever the savings buy you.

I have a 10 order list in mind with a TAG

OP here to approve thread derailment, my question has very much been answered.

OF THESE, definitely the swissile. But I more often use a nisse (or kamau now, I suppose), if you somehow have the SWC you could bring two for similar points.

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27 minutes ago, Hexa said:

OF THESE, definitely the swissile. But I more often use a nisse (or kamau now, I suppose), if you somehow have the SWC you could bring two for similar points.

 

NCA list so sadly good options are expensive and limited. 

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2 hours ago, Shoitaan said:

I'd like to ask an off-topic but still relevant question now that OP feels his question was answered. If you sadly could only bring one, who would you bring for long range fire support. Mostly ARO duty with only minimal orders spent to remove threats.
Swiss ML
Swiss HMG
Aquilia HMG + whatever the savings buy you.

I have a 10 order list in mind with a TAG

Are your opponent's playing 10 order lists too? Do your missions require Specialists? 

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Unable to say what my next two opponents play or what their list looks like.  My next 2-3 games will be a mostly fireight and safezone. I'm packing specialists already. My next ITS match has been postponed twice now so I'm just using the time to refine and potentially completely over think my list. It's escalation league so my opponents last list won't reflect his next one. Will try to find out his faction tonight though. 

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Which TAG? Squalo or Uhlan? Or you playing Vanilla?

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Squalo in NCA. I have an uhlan but wasn't brave enough to field it untested in my first ITS event

 

@Barakiel, Match 1 Steel Phalanx, Match 2 Yu Jing or ISS (likely ISS), Match 3 is optional and will be either USARF or Tohaa

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8 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Is it just me, or does the Assault Hacking Device (regardless of carrier) come with a tax of KHD to protect it from enemy KHDs?

 

And cost 8 pts 0.5 SWC making it very expensive specialist option (sucks to be a soldier with only such specialist option, guess who has most AHD only specialists ^^). 

 

 

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