Nenyx

Looting and Sabotaging

26 posts in this topic

I've never played this mission yet, so i was wondering about the ways to destroy that AC2.

We have 2 ways of destroying an AC2. Either by the manly, good old fashioned way of hitting it with big CC weapons till it breaks, or by using D-charges.

CC would be the big guys, Achilles and his lover, Hector, Ajax, the joker Diomedes, and some other myrms (Machaon, Phoenix ...) Sadly the myrm officer can only have an AP CCW. Don't cry my little girl (Penthesilea), you can one shot a Jotum but not hack a console :( I've given the title "joker" to Diomedes, since he should not be the datatracker for obvious reasons, and should rather be a strong backup if the main one can't reach the AC2.

This method seems more appropriate to Steel Phalanx, since they have all it needs to bring the guy to the objective. Fireteam makes it order efficient, and well, they are an assault section to begin with. They just have to be a bit careful of any hacker coverage if they count on one of the HI heroes to destroy it.

I'm struggling a bit with vanilla through. Of course the big guys are still available, but most of them seem less efficient here without a fireteam to cary them. Achilles or Pat are still good because of their movement and pure power, but i wouldnt rely on Machaon as a datatracker for example, i fear it could be very order intensive not only reaching the AC2, but after that, trying to kill it with B1 PH13 DA vs Arm8. Ofc the Marut can do the job too, but bringing it seems some kind of ultra high risk low reward gamble for me.

So I was wondering about the D-Charges. Sadly, no naga or dasyu have them (well it would be a trouble with datatraker rules). Dactyls seem like a subpar choice for me, since they have only standard movement, no great resilience (only dogged), and are still expensive. But MK1 (cheap, NWI, mimetism) and the sophotech (6-4 mvt, NWI) may be some valuable choices. Does anyone have some kind of experience using D-charges on the AC2 ?

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You forget one thing : any specialist using the panoplies can choose to take a d-charge instead of making a loot roll :

"By succeeding at a WIP Roll, the Specialist Troops can replace the result of the Booty Chart roll with D-Charges."

 

Last time I did this mission (in Vanilla), I send Ajax destroy the AC2 after killing the ARO piece around. He was quite efficient and demolished in with only two orders.

I haven't tried it but D-Charge seem like an easy strategy. You take D-Charge on the panoply with a to camo/infiltration (mk2 hacker for example), have him place the D-charge. Then your mk1 engineer make it explode => AC2 destroyed by your datatracker

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You have to use the D-charges in a CC attack. You cannot damage by setting and detonating.

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So D-charges have no interrest, since most of these units have only CC13 or so :( Think i'll use Hector or Pat then.

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There are also the Myrmidon specialists (Machaon, CoC officer, hacker) that all have 20+ CC and MA 3+.

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Machaon has DA CCW, so he does not need to go loot a D-Charge, even if would more powerful with it. Problem of all myrm is the order efficiency. If i chose Steel Phalanx and made them as a fireteam, that can work, but on vanilla it will be harder. That's why I thought of the sophotech, but CC13 sucks. Another choice would be HD+ Asura, but same problem here, she's slow.

I was also thinking of Thrasymede, who can be a good candidate for datatracker and AC2 destruction (infiltration, ODD and CC19)

Another option i'm thinking about is to throw the "kill AC2 with the datatracker" and rely on either Diomedes or some fast, marker state killer (Pat or a spec dasyu) to kill the AC2 without be bothered with datatracker's restrictions. In that regard, I could even use my datatracker as a decoy, making my opponent think "i have to block that guy from reaching my console" and use an unexpected vector from that.

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I haven't tried her for this but Scylla is a specialist and her CC is not so bad. She could use a D-Charge without much problem. Same with Andromeda. Both could take a D-Charge and go kill the AC2.

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Andromeda can kill the AC2 even without a D-charge, but i'm more concerned about her S4. But yes, it would be one situation where Andromeda could really be useful for a change. And you're right about Scylla, i tend to forgot she has a better than average CC score. Since i was planning to take her, i'll think about it, so i thank you for that :)

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I'd suggest using Patroclus.  I recently played this scenario at a tournament and managed to knock down the opponents AC2 in the first round. 

If you're disguising Pat but not using any holo-echoes you can have him as your data tracker, as he's not in a marker state.  I put him down as a slow and inoffensive Thorakitai first turn in the hopes of avoiding too many ARO pieces lined up against him.

The benefits of using Pat is his 6-4 movement, his own smoke cover, ODD, and his EXP CCW with a decent chance of critting in CC

The ability to generate holo-echoes to clear out any mines/koalas etc, and his immunity to hacking means he can avoid or ignore a lot of the precautions your opposition might be taking to defend their AC2.

He might not survive long after (although he might with smoke dodging on 16s) but hopefully he'll have served his purpose and you can concentrate on defending your own point.

 

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You have a good point, except when you talk about holo echoes. As a datatracker, you can't go into holoechoes state, since it is a marker state. That makes Pat really vulnerable to mines, and you can expect the AC2 to be protected by some of them.

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Didn't think of that.  I guess it would come down to deciding whether to have him as your data tracker after you see what kind of defences he'll need to get through.  May well be worth sacrificing those bonus objective points to keep the efficiency if there's a minefield to navigate.  I definitely wouldn't want to lose his ability of holo up for the duration of the game.

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He could still use Holo1 run up the table as a Dakini Paramedic, though.

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It's hard to beat Ajax or one of the other big boys, but if you do want to use D-charges I think Machaon is a solid choice. he can get d-charges from the panoply, and his eclipse smoke and ODD should help him approach. MA 3 to offset the D-charge penalty. He's also a really solid datatracker.

If by vanilla you're one of those RP players who means 'only vedic' then yeah, you pretty much have to go with Sophie

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It's rather that i wanted to know if the D-charge was an option. I play SP from times to times but i prefer vanilla cause i like some vedic units too (asura, the posthumans ...). But i've no problem mixing vedic and greeks, in fact i rarely play without a greek somewhere.

As for the others, i don't have Ajax right now (could proxy him with an azra'il though), and i don't like Achilles (it's personnal, he was a pure dick in Iliad and killed both Penthesilea and Hector who were my favorites characters with Odysseus, i have nothing against the Infinity profile), that means i'll have to pass on the 2 most obvious choices. I don't think it's that much of a bad choice through, since both of them are obvious candidates so that any opponent would see them come and prepare for them. Plus both of them are vulnerable to hacking, and i'm expecting to see some AHD protecting the console. And it's unlikely any of my usual opponent would throw me a repeater for use without it being a huge trap, they got to know my KHD far too well for that.

So Pat' is most likely one of the best AC2 killer we can field. 6-4 is huge, Holo2 is huge (providing he is not the datatracker), and not being hackable is huge too.

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51 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

He could still use Holo1 run up the table as a Dakini Paramedic, though.

Can't he still move 6-4 as a Thorakitai?  Naturally this would give him away but is he restricted from doing so while in that appearance?

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Sure, but as you say it instantly reveals that he's not a Thorakitai.

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On 11/14/2017 at 1:47 PM, Nenyx said:

So D-charges have no interrest, since most of these units have only CC13 or so :( Think i'll use Hector or Pat then.

D-charges are still worth it, and really useful actually, for CC. You still get their damage type of AP+EXP. Against ARM 8 that means your non-crit EXP hits are more likely to land. Scylla gets pretty good with auto D-Charges from a Pano due to CyberMask and her bots. 

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1 hour ago, DukeEarl said:

D-charges are still worth it, and really useful actually, for CC. You still get their damage type of AP+EXP. Against ARM 8 that means your non-crit EXP hits are more likely to land. Scylla gets pretty good with auto D-Charges from a Pano due to CyberMask and her bots. 

i agree that DA is not enough without very high physical and/or a willingness to spend a lot of orders. 

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I meant that D-charges on engineer are not worth since CC13. Ofc they can be good on CC able fighters, but on the condition they can get them. I can see a myrmidon fireteam going to a panoply then to the AC2 in SP, but i'm not quite sure about a single myrm officer in Vanilla. That's why i would favor Pat or Thrasy, the first being fast, the second starting close.

Just checked the numbers, good old Mach' has 57% of getting one wound on AC2 if he's alone, or 82% one wound and 42% 2 wounds with one help (read yudbot) with his DA weapon. If he gets a D-charge, it is 90% 1STR, 56% 2 STR, 15% 3 STR, and a fantastic 99% 1STR 92% 2STR 73% 3STR with a yudbot. But i'm more concerned about crossing all the midfield toward the enemy zone. Seems like a one way, no return trip.

Ho btw, I find it better to send a troop who can kill the AC2 even without D-charges. Because they are expandable(3), so in the event something went really wrong, he could still finish the job or threaten to it. It's not much of a concern with CC able troops, but it's one more reason not to rely on a CC13 engineer.

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Totally agree with an engineer not being the best choice for it. A Myrm Officer in Vanilla could be a good backup choice to more CC focused units though. Decent armor, Eclipse Smoke, ODD. Move it towards a Pano (getting that extra OP could be important) earlier and then make the call later if needed.

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Can't Machaon get burst 2 and +1 DAM on his CCW by bringing along a Yudbot?

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He does, and it helps. But he still has only a DA with PH13 vs ARM8. BTW, i always consider MA3 and i forgot other levels exist.So, a quick check.

Machaon alone, using MA3, vs AC2: 57,8% to wound once, 10,9% to wound 2.

Machaon alone, using MA2, vs AC2: 67,6% to wound once, 18,4% to wound 2.

Mach' with yudbot using MA2: 89.50% - 57.62% - 21.49%. It's becoming really impressive.

It's a rare case when MA2 performs better than MA3. It is worth remembering with all MA3 users: Machaon, Achilles, Patroclus, Diomedes, Hector ... It's even stronger on EXP CCW users.

Quick example with Pat (probably the best AC2 hunter thanks to ODD, smoke and sheer movement). MA3 vs MA2, doing -1 STR or better: 68,36% - 80,56%. -2STR: 22;66% - 38,08%, -3STR: 2,73% - 7,36%

Quick edit: forgot about MA4 for Achilles/Hector, which is plain better than MA2 due to sheer burst.

TL,DR: To destroy the AC2, MA4 > MA2 > MA3.

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58 minutes ago, Nenyx said:

Quick example with Pat (probably the best AC2 hunter thanks to ODD, smoke and sheer movement). MA3 vs MA2, doing -1 STR or better: 68,36% - 80,56%. -2STR: 22;66% - 38,08%, -3STR: 2,73% - 7,36%

Just keep in mind that you can't Holoecho if you want Pat to be the DT for that extra point. 

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I read the D-Charge page on the wiki again and it seem you don't need a CC roll against a scenery piece cause you are using the Deployable Mode :

Deployable Mode. Using D-Charges as Deployable Weapons is a two-step process: Planting and Detonating.

  • Planting a D-Charge on a piece of scenery or on an enemy trooper in an Immobilized (IMM-1 or IMM-2) or any Null state. In base to base contact, spend one Short Skill of an Order or ARO. No Roll needed.
  • Detonating a D-Charge. The user, or another friendly trooper with D-Charges or the Special Skill Engineer, spends one Short Skill of an Order or an ARO (if ARO Requirements are fulfilled). No Roll needed.
  • D-Charges can only be detonated if they have been previously planted.

So using a D-Charge to destroy the AC2 is a perfectly good option. So mk2 hacker take the D-charge, plant it then mk1 engineer datatraker explde it and win many objective points

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Problem is that "An AC2 can only be damaged by CC Attacks with CC Weapons possessing the Antimaterial Trait." (quoted from ITS9 rules). And the deployable mode is not a CC attack.

It has been confirmed in the FAQ, question 19:

Quote

19. LOOTING & SABOTAGING Can you affect the AC2 by placing and detonating D-Charges or do you have to use CC Mode? ANSWERED You have to use the CC Mode.  The AC2 can only be damaged by CC Attacks with CC Weapons.

Deployable mode would be far better for most of the engineers and specialists that are not CC proficient. But sadly it does not work that way.

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