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Question

Hello, after saving up for several games, I have a few questions that I hope the board can help me with.

 

1: This is more of an ITS question, but what is the general (fair) protocol for a player conceding in the middle of a game? Points as they stand? Max points for other player, while zero for player that quits? Points the player can likely score in their remaining turns?

 

2: Last night we had a Asura hacker attempt to Redrum a Ninja Killer Hacker from a short distance away and within line of sight. Ninja responds with an “Engage.” Engage as written says that the player “dodges” ALL attacks. Does this mean that Engage acts just as the “Dodge” skill including movement, or can an Engage be used to nullify hacking attacks, unlike Dodge?

I was using my book last night, but online I see that the word “dodges” is hyperlinked to the entry for Dodge, so that probably clears it up.

 

3: The old Netrod disperses into terrain question. (I saw this has been brought up before.) Netrod disperses somewhere it can't be placed. It follows the rules for troopers using Advanced Deployment, but as it is equipment, should be destroyed if it leaves the table. Following all these rules, ends with the Netrod placed on the border of the deployment zone. Is there a better ruling on this?

 

4: Hack Transport Aircraft. We debated about this a bit last night. I was under the impression that the FtF roll of hacker's WP vs. jumper's PH was the same as the jumper's usual normal roll. But others thought that it was a FtF roll followed by a second roll for the deployment if the first was not successfully hacked. Are there one or two rolls here?

 

5: When using Climb or Climbing Plus, is there any need to move in a straight line? Can a figure use the Climb skill to move horizontally across a wall instead of vertically? Do you have to move upwards or downwards at all?

 

 

Thanks

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10 answers to this question

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1) Not sure if there is a rule. Friendly play I wouldn't worry. In tournament play I would ask my opponent to play out the game for points scoring reasons.

2) "Dodge does not allow the user to evade Attacks caused by Hacking Programs or Comms Attacks, but the Reset Skill does." - They would be normal rolls not FtF

3) "If during the Deployment Phase, the bearer of AI Beacon suffers a Dispersion using the AD: Combat Jump Special Skill that causes it to exit the game table, then the player must consider it lost, and a casualty that counts toward the Retreat! and the Victory Points." - If it can't be placed or goes off the table it is gone.

4) They are direct FtF. If the AD wins they land properly. If the Hacker wins the Ad disperses. If neither is successful, the AD disperses.

5) I'm not sure, but I would read it that Climb is only vertical movement as that is stated multiple times in the rule. Climbing Plus though allows you to move "along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground."  That would seem to allow traversal to me. 

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1 hour ago, DukeEarl said:

If it can't be placed...

I believe this is incorrect.  Though the answer isn't completely official, IJW has indicated that it's only when dispersing off the table that it is lost.

 

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4 hours ago, DukeEarl said:

4) They are direct FtF. If the AD wins they land properly. If the Hacker wins the Ad disperses. If neither is successful, the AD disperses.

In the case of draws the AD lands normally.

4 hours ago, DukeEarl said:

5) I'm not sure, but I would read it that Climb is only vertical movement as that is stated multiple times in the rule. Climbing Plus though allows you to move "along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground."  That would seem to allow traversal to me. 

Yes. Traversal is allowed both in Climbing and Climbing+. The key point is the surface: if the surface can support the model naturally it's horizontal and you move over it (and can claim cover), if it can't then it's vertical and you climb over it (and can't).

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1. As a TO I encourage players to stick it out if they can in order to learn the game and possibly deny the opponent points. If the player is just too stressed out to do so, then I allow the score to be max as reasonable. ie: if 1 point is not possible ie: Data Tracker is dead, I don't give that point.

2. Duke Earl is correct. Only reset can avoid a Hacking attack. Also note, that if the dodge engage fails to be within range, the dodge counts as failing.

3. Duke Earl is correct

4.  Duke Earl is correct

5. Not sure either. I would assume that you can if you needed to climb the side of a building for example.

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15 hours ago, Scott581 said:

5a: When using Climb or Climbing Plus, is there any need to move in a straight line? 5b: Can a figure use the Climb skill to move horizontally across a wall instead of vertically? 5c: Do you have to move upwards or downwards at all?

[Annotated questions numbers are mine] 

Maybe it's just never come in up in our games, but I've previously failed to realize that the constraints for direction of movement do actually differ between the two skills. 

Climb http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Climb does indeed specify only vertical movement (italics mine) 

EFFECTS

  • The user may climb vertically up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches.
  • Climb allows only movement up or down vertical surfaces;

and Climbing Plus http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Climbing_Plus does indeed provide that rather vague additional qualification*

EFFECTS

  • Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.

So as @DukeEarl says

 

15 hours ago, DukeEarl said:

5) I'm not sure, but I would read it that Climb is only vertical movement as that is stated multiple times in the rule. Climbing Plus though allows you to move "along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground."  That would seem to allow traversal to me. 

* For what it's worth, I'm sure the clarity of both rules could be improved by adding something like " ... thus units may traverse the vertical surface in any direction as well as strictly vertically" to the text of Climbing Plus, but in the meantime, I think the answers to @Scott581's questions are:

5a: yes, units may only move in a straight line vertically with Climb.
5b: no, they may not move horizontally, and
5c: (I take this to be a rephrasing of the previous questions) yes, a unit using Climb is obliged to move only vertically upward or downward.

Thanks to @Scott581 for a good question, and to @DukeEarl for good reading! :)

 

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The only horizontal movement allowed when using Climb is what is necessary to get to a legal end position.  Like it shows in the book, where the model moves a base width or so forward because it needs to stop in a supported position.  There are situations where you effectively get an inch or so of "free" movement, that ends up being free because Climb doesn't let the model "pay for it" out of movement allowance.

A model with Climbing Plus usually declares Move and then proceeds to use the movement to travel up the wall.  So a model with Climbing Plus can move to the side or whatever it wants while moving across the vertical surface if it declared Move.  If it declares Climb, then it follows the Climb rules.

Note that Climb is more restrictive (you have to get to base contact with the scenery using a different skill), that's what balances out the small amount of free movement.

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@Solkan when you say 'horizontal movement' you mean 'movement on a horizontal surface', correct?

If so I agree with you.

However, if you mean 'horizontal movement' as 'moving horizontally on a vertical surface' then I'd disagree.

The only sane way of interpreting Climb and Climbing+ is that:

'horizontal' or 'vertical' refers to the surface NOT to the direction of movement.

This allows any model to traverse across a wall but only allows C+ models to move along the ground, climb a wall and move across the roof in a single movement.

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On 11/19/2017 at 9:08 AM, inane.imp said:

However, if you mean 'horizontal movement' as 'moving horizontally on a vertical surface' then I'd disagree.

Firstly, can we agree to call 'moving roughly parallel to the horizon on a roughly vertical surface' as 'traversing', since that's the word a rock climber would use?

On 11/19/2017 at 9:08 AM, inane.imp said:

The only sane way of interpreting Climb and Climbing+ is that: 'horizontal' or 'vertical' refers to the surface NOT to the direction of movement.
This allows any model to traverse across a wall but only allows C+ models to move along the ground, climb a wall and move across the roof in a single movement.

I'm fairly sure @solkan meant horizontal is the proper sense of 'parallel to the horizon', since he was referring to the additional horizontal movement provided by Climb to reach level ground. But am I correct to think you're suggesting we should interpret Climb/Climbing Plus as allowing only up and down (vertical) movement, and that neither allow any kind of traversing?

If so, I could see why you'd say that (because it makes a consistent sense of the rules about being in base contact with the vertical surface at the start), but I don't think it's a correct interpretation, because when Climbing Plus http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Climbing_Plus says

  • Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.

it surely means 'as freely as they could move on horizontal ground' ie. 'in any direction, now including any vertical component.'

 

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I wasn't as clear as I could be.

I think the rules have 2 distinct classes of surface 'horizontal' and 'vertical'. Horizontal surfaces fully support a model, vertical surfaces a large enough to support a model but by virtue of their orientation do not.

I think Climb allows you to move in any direction on Vertical Surfaces (without going prone without Cover): ie you can traverse with Climb. But you must start in B2B with the surface and if you want to get off the surface you can only do it if you're adjacent a horizontal surface and you are placed on the horizontal surface as free movement.

I think with Climbing+ it's unambiguous that you can traverse (and that you can also go prone). Also you can seemlessly transition from Horizontal to Vertical surfaces without stopping your movement.

However, it appeared to me that people were suggesting that Climb doesn't allow traversing but is strictly up and down.

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11 hours ago, inane.imp said:

However, it appeared to me that people were suggesting that Climb doesn't allow traversing but is strictly up and down.

That's probably because of the bullet point that specifically says so :P.

On 11/18/2017 at 8:16 AM, Slowburner said:

EFFECTS

  • The user may climb vertically up to the first value of his MOV Attribute in inches.
  • Climb allows only movement up or down vertical surfaces; [emphasis added]

"Up" and "Down" are pretty specific within the context.

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