Arloid

Unusual profiles that seem to find a place in your lists

98 posts in this topic

Ah, that makes more sense now I think of it, never really looked at the Frenchies in much detail before, guess I missed him. Still a whole Moblot link on suppression near a objective might be hard to deal with. Kinda makes me want to play a double fireteam list. Might expand into ariadna next.

On second thought it might be more efficient to drop a zouave and some infiltrators instead and put those on suppression.

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Aquila HMG, how the mighty have fallen. LOL Amusingly, despite the drop in popularity, its still a very effective unit. Its fun to pair with a TAG. Suppression fire Aquila is a nice bodyguard for a TAG.

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In what world is Aquila HMG not popular?

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7 hours ago, Loricus said:

In what world is Aquila HMG not popular?

In what world it is? I know quite a few NCA/PanO players and can't remember the last time I've seen it.

 

To the main question: Asura Hacker. I just love the idea and keep fielding her despite the subpar gun. And now the !'/*?#[email protected]#* nerf via Shock ruling.

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7 hours ago, Loricus said:

In what world is Aquila HMG not popular?

In worlds where Swiss or double Hexa are taken. 

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It's a bit funny, get the feeling that Pan-O and Yu Jing have tables switched where the Pan-O supreme elite MSV HI is impopular, the Yu Jing counterpart is popular - the Pan-O light weight MSV2 is popular, the Yu Jing light weight MSV2 is impopular.

And before Loricus comes along and says his brother plays Bao all the time; I play them as well, they just gets cut from the list nearly all the time for me because they are ill suited for the mission or because there's more reliable troopers available to eat their points.

(Bao, I choose you! Bao uses Biovisor. Fiday is revealed. Bao uses Shotgun. It's not very effective.)

Edited by Mahtamori
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1 hour ago, Mahtamori said:

It's a bit funny, get the feeling that Pan-O and Yu Jing have tables switched where the Pan-O supreme elite MSV HI is impopular, the Yu Jing counterpart is popular - the Pan-O light weight MSV2 is popular, the Yu Jing light weight MSV2 is impopular.

Well PanO has only 1 MSV2+ HI which is Aquila who pays through the nose for privilage of having MSV3. Additionally there's no smoke trick. Popularity of "cheap" MSV2 comes from fact that it comes either with MR, Spitfire or has some additional qualities. For a price of Aquila you might take BF and almost fit a Hexa too ;)

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3 minutes ago, Eciu said:

Well PanO has only 1 MSV2+ HI which is Aquila who pays through the nose for privilage of having MSV3. Additionally there's no smoke trick. Popularity of "cheap" MSV2 comes from fact that it comes either with MR, Spitfire or has some additional qualities. For a price of Aquila you might take BF and almost fit a Hexa too ;)

I wouldn't call it "through the nose" in comparison to the Hsien, though, it's only 1 point and I'd take MSV3 and higher BS over the pittance of CC that Hsien gets for the same price. I'm not certain that you've nailed it on the cheaper MSV2 troopers, either, because again - Bao being as impopular as they are.

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I thought I've seen Aquila played in lists all the time maybe things have changed.

I also use Bao but I don't remember seeing them in lists constantly like I have Aquila. I don't understand why they aren't popular I thought people didn't want to pay for armor.

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16 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I thought I've seen Aquila played in lists all the time maybe things have changed.

I also use Bao but I don't remember seeing them in lists constantly like I have Aquila. I don't understand why they aren't popular I thought people didn't want to pay for armor.

+2 BS, +1 wound, LT profile, and HMG.

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2 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

+2 BS, +1 wound, LT profile, and HMG.

I meant compared to other low cost MSV.

I have nothing against Hsien I play Hsien Haris they're the best.

 

edit: Djanbazan on a faction with only Yuan Yuan for smoke are popular in and out of link. They pay for armor and 11 PH Regen, crazy bloated compared to Bao.

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7 minutes ago, Loricus said:

edit: Djanbazan on a faction with only Yuan Yuan for smoke are popular in and out of link. They pay for armor and 11 PH Regen, crazy bloated compared to Bao.

Nah. Regeneration is surprisingly good in a faction that's got Doctor+ on high WIP all over the place (such as on... Djanbazan), and an MSV2 HMG is really great. However, there's something to be said about the... ability hostage situation of Djanbazan being the only MSV2 troopers. It is a very useful piece of equipment regardless of whether you have smoke or not.

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12 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Regeneration is surprisingly good in a faction that's got Doctor+ on high WIP all over the place (such as on... Djanbazan)

Some people won't pay the price of some CC for an MSV3 and others pay about 6 pts for Shock Immunity and ask for more pretty crazy.

Anyways I like the Rui Shi but MSR is really useful for anti-WB. I feel like so many people complain about WB but won't take counters to them.

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In my case it's the humble Alguacil w/Multi-Sniper-Rifle.  Playing Qapu Khalqi; and having the benefit of a Djanbazan with MSV and for 0.5 SCW (as opposed to the 1.5 of the Alguacil); every time I field the Alguacil Sniper, she's been a murder machine, causing most of my opponents' casualties.

It may be just superstition (well, it definetly is, having no significant statistic to back this up); but every time I field her, she becomes my MVP.  The fact that the model looks like Evangelion's Asuka Langley, her boss crouching pose and the eye patch I made for her with Green Stuff, all contribute to my wishful thinking that she rocks.

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4 minutes ago, Danger Rose said:

 every time I field the Alguacil Sniper, she's been a murder machine, causing most of my opponents' casualties.

MULTI Snipers are really solid options. Damage 15 DA ammo only breaks even with AP for likeliness to cause a wound on 8 Armor in cover.

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Something can be said about the MULTI Sniper, but let’s not forget the humble Sniper Rifle.

Sure it doesn’t have AP or DA, but what is more treatening for LI/MI infantry, 1 Multi Sniper in ARO or 3 regular snipers for the same SWC in a link.

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4 hours ago, Arloid said:

Sure it doesn’t have AP or DA, but what is more treatening for LI/MI infantry, 1 Multi Sniper in ARO or 3 regular snipers for the same SWC in a link.

That's just evil!  3 B2 +3BS Snipers... *shudders*

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Well, keep in mind that the opponent can deal with them whatever way he want, probably 1 at a time. Sure they are treatening, but let's not forget that you sink a lot of points into it to do it and honestly they aren't going to do a lot in the active turn.

However some standout units are the USAriadna Grunt, Marauders, Djanbazan (although expensive for a defensive link), Govads and the Kameals.

Especially the Marauder is order consuming for the opponent to deal with.

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13 hours ago, Danger Rose said:

The fact that the model looks like Evangelion's Asuka Langley, her boss crouching pose and the eye patch I made for her with Green Stuff, all contribute to my wishful thinking that she rocks.

That's the one I use too! For my link on Corregidor. Although not with an eyepatch :P

One of my favorite models.

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On 11/27/2017 at 2:53 AM, Mahtamori said:

I wouldn't call it "through the nose" in comparison to the Hsien, though, it's only 1 point and I'd take MSV3 and higher BS over the pittance of CC that Hsien gets for the same price. I'm not certain that you've nailed it on the cheaper MSV2 troopers, either, because again - Bao being as impopular as they are.

Yeah, but would you also give Stealth, the template weapon, the LT Order, Smoke access and 5 point Regular Orders?  

Simplifying the Hsien's advantages to a "pittance of CC" doesn't seem quite accurate.  

On the broader topic, this is actually a tough subject for me.  As primarily a Sectorial player, I feel like most players try pretty much every profile at some point.  Units that that never get play in Vanilla are the darlings of Sectorial armies, so it's a little tough to evaluate such things.  But here are my offerings on the subject of using profiles that don't seem very popular:

-Akalis Hacker.  His Hacking stats aren't great.  He's exposing himself to KHDs.  He's nearly 30 points for a Combi Rifle, with no weapons or visual modifiers.  He overpaysf or CC related paraphernalia he'll never use.

But damn, PanO really likes it when you can bring a Specialist on that far up the field. And it's actually nice to have an Assault Hacker who is immune to enemy attacks until you choose to bring him into play, after you've already taken out enemy KHDs.

-Unlinked Bagh Mari.  I think these are something of a well kept secret.  They're like discount intruders, paying a lot fewer points to keep that similarly excellent advantage of visual modifiers and MSV.  And having Minelayer on the Sniper profile is a great little defensive tool.  I particularly like setting up 4 link members and Rao in one area of the table, keeping a sniper or HMG as my reserve drop, and then deploying them someplace far from the link to exploit an angle where an enemy didn't expect any Bagh Mari to be.

-Non-LT Stephen Rao.  Oh Rao.  Your main advantage is a 6th linkable body for Bagh Mari, and WIP14 LT simply isn't wroth stamping a huge target on your head.  So he may look like a badass leading from the front, but my lists almost always have a humble Regular LT hiding in back calling the shots.  

-Swiss Guard MULTI Rifle (non Hacker): because MULTI rifles are really, really good, and sometimes you don't want your forward gunfighter to have his brain melted by all those KHDs out there.

-Haramaki links with maxed Burst 1 weapons, and no shotguns/spitfires/combis.  I actually liked Haramaki the most when they didn't need a Domaru, and were basically just ARO gods with linked Contenders, Blitzens and missiles.  I miss having the full 5-man team tremendously, and I still really like running as many as I can in this role.  They consumed virtually zero Orders, could lock down huge sections of table, and let quick button pushers like bikes and Ninja do their job.

-Foxtrot boarding shotgun.  This gal gets passed over all the time for those Forward Observers, but man she packs some serious punch for less than 20 points.

-SAS in Vanilla Ariadna.  Because surprising someone with a Surprise Shot Assault Pistol, Martial Arts 2 surprise attack or grenade toss when they were expecting a Foxtrot or Chasseur is hilarious.

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10 hours ago, Loricus said:

That's the one I use too! For my link on Corregidor. Although not with an eyepatch :P

One of my favorite models.

I wish I could still find one of these old Alguacil sniper models.  It's leagues above ol' baldy from the Alguacil box.  #2 on my list of desired out of print stuff after the Morlock blister.

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1 hour ago, Barakiel said:

Yeah, but would you also give Stealth, the template weapon, the LT Order, Smoke access and 5 point Regular Orders?  

I know your grievances, but you're both thoroughly disingenuous and avoiding the actual discussion about how cheaper MSV2 units compared to the more expensive one is popular in Pan-O while it is opposite in Yu Jing in spite of the relative equality in price. That and you're literally taking your tired, old, laundry list of grievances and compare it only to other factions' strengths. No wonder Pan-O loses in your comparisons (and consistently place well on the international scene).

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3 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

I know your grievances, but you're both thoroughly disingenuous and avoiding the actual discussion about how cheaper MSV2 units compared to the more expensive one is popular in Pan-O while it is opposite in Yu Jing in spite of the relative equality in price. That and you're literally taking your tired, old, laundry list of grievances and compare it only to other factions' strengths. No wonder Pan-O loses in your comparisons (and consistently place well on the international scene).

I think you're confusing me with someone else.  I love my PanO.  Last season, I was the highest ranked NCA/Acon player in the US.  And as someone who owns and plays Yu Jing as well as PanO, I prefer my Pano for the focused profiles and coherent theme that their Sectorials bring to the game.

But when you talk about the Aquila's MSV3 being better than the Hsien's Close Combat, when in fact the Hsien has a multitude of other things that the Aquila doesn't... Your bias shows through. You're not discussing the full picture, and I just thought I'd point that out.  

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1 minute ago, Barakiel said:

I think you're confusing me with someone else.  I love my PanO.  Last season, I was the highest ranked NCA/Acon player in the US.  And as someone who owns and plays Yu Jing as well as PanO, I prefer my Pano for the focused profiles and coherent theme that their Sectorials bring to the game.

But when you talk about the Aquila's MSV3 being better than the Hsien's Close Combat, when in fact the Hsien has a multitude of other things that the Aquila doesn't... Your bias shows through. You're not discussing the full picture, and I just thought I'd point that out.  

I've only ever had reason to use Stealth on the list you made (frankly, Kuang Shi and CG Smoke Launcher are thoroughly irrelevant to the conversation). I don't mind the Nanopulser, I think its point value is very representative of how useful it is, but the increased CC is pitiful compared to how much it costs and that together with how they remain very popular comparatively was the point I was making. Plus, you know, that extra point of BS is also tremendously nice thing to have on a unit whose only purpose is to shoot at stuff until they die.

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Sure, those are all fine points.  

For me, I find the Aquila really vulnerable to close combat and CQB.  It lacks the flexibility to venture into the midfield, because it's relying on BS rolls (and pretty much only BS rolls) to defend itself, and that becomes a pretty meager defense against a lot of short-ranged threats.  And since the Aquila also lacks Stealth of course, it has to be careful around Repeater networks and similar things.  This sort of negates the advantage of MSV3, since that's a rule that prospers the most when hunting through a Camo-rich midfield.  But since the Aquila's vulnerability increases the further across the table it marches, you don't really want it in the midfield at all.  

By contrast, the Hsien's pretty well equipped to venture into the midfield, or stand off and fight from range as a top-tier gunfighter (MSV2 + Smoke @ BS14 > MSV3 @ BS15.)  Also, I don't know why smoke should be ignored for this discussion, since it's a benefit that can basically be universally applied in your active turn engagements.  With Stealth, you can sneak past repeaters or close to Hackers and zap them.  You can deter enemy CC Specialists, whether that's making them think about your own CC, or by using the Nanopulser for defense.  And if you are working up close, the Nanopulser gives you a second mechanism for Discover in case your attempt fails, which is a nice way to offset the main difference between MSV3 and MSV2 by basically giving the Hsien a "second chance" for revealing nearby Camo threats.  The result is that the Hsien plugs very easily into a variety of battlefield dilemmas that need solving.  The Aquila is pretty brittle in its application.

A lot of this stems from the Aquila, while being a great unit, being totally overshadowed by the Swiss (this doesn't really have anything to do with the Hsien... It's more commentary on the nature of MSV versus Camo.)  Having something like a direct template, close combat, or some other secondary ability would actually help the Aquila stand apart from the Swiss and bring something unique (some people have talked about doing this via a Command Skill for the Aquila, which would be pretty interesting.)  

So while neither unit is perfect, PanO players like the Hsien because it offers something markedly different from "a Swiss Guard that ditches its TO Camo for a much less useful ability."  That's why the Aquila appears in this thread... In most situations, it just feels like a flat downgrade from the Swiss, taking the Swiss' best assets (Camo, Specialist capability, supreme ARO piece) and exchanging them for something that's less useful, less applicable to a typical game.  Even the Hsien's LT HMG profile, which would be pretty cool on the Aquila when paired with Veteran Bolts to encourage aggressive Lieutenant play, is conspicuously absent.  When you factor in that NCA also gives the phenomenal Spitfire Deva, while Vanilla has the Nisse, it's further highlights why PanO players often leave their Aquila at home.

I think that's why the Hsien has appeal.  Lots of PanO players want a reason to love the Aquila Guard over the Swiss Guard.  They look at the cool versatility of the Hsien and think "hmm, those are very different from the Swiss, they sure would be cool on an Aquila."  

But of course, Versatility vs Specialization are hallmarks of Yu Jing vs PanO.  There's no reason the Aquila should have the same flexibility that the Hsien has, outside of making the Aquila more appealing to use.  But honestly, I think the Aquila would be more popular in Yu Jing, and the Hsien would be more popular* in PanO.

*Note that I see the Hsien everywhere, both locally and when I travel.  The idea that it's somehow a poor expenditure of points is a concept so far outside my experience that I almost regard it as trolling.  But this sure does make for interesting discussion, which is why I'm happy to have this convo :) 

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