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Konuhageruke

Smoke granate shot on wall

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In N2 players tried to use either of those to avoid shadow zone restrictions. In N3 you could use either to hit enemy troopers that you couldn't otherwise hit, for example a trooper at ground level at the same time as a prone trooper on a nearby rooftop.

Plus from a practical point of view how do you work out the area of effect of a Smoke grenade on a wall?

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6 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Out of curiosity:

  1. How are you planning to orient the template?
  2. Why would it be possible to do this with LoF but not via Speculative Shot?

1. The same way you do whenever you place the template over a stairwell or on top of scatter terrain - as best you can to illustrate the effect to both players.

2.  If I want to Spec fire a smoke grenade and it requires a horizontal surface to land on and not a vertical one, then it's irrelevant because I can target the adjacent horizontal edge's corner of  the floor or ceiling planes running perpendicular to the wall plane and achieve the same effect.

illustration:

https://imgur.com/a/H0fN9

 

nade template.png

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30 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Plus from a practical point of view how do you work out the area of effect of a Smoke grenade on a wall?

As the crow flies. A vertical column of infinite height in both direction (i mean the z axis - or the axis that goes directly away from the center of Earth) that goes through the template center (which coincidentally happen to also be the targeted point).

Just to be clear, from a practical point of view, how do you work out the area of effect of a non-smoke grenade on a wall ? ex: a stun grenade shot directly at a chimera climbing the wall.

A smoke grenade area of effect would practically be resolved the same way, but with a target point instead of a target model. And instead of a sphere, I would have a column (of the same radius as the sphere's radius) going directly up toward to sky and also in the opposite direction of the same axis.

In before - true that I cannot lay a DVD template (or other acrylic template) horizontally centered on the point on the wall, but neither can you do so with a point on the ground that is very close to the wall or close to any other scenery that is in the way.

edit to clarify : i'm only answering the practicality element of the question, not the how to apply the rule.

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This intrigues me, how does smoke work if you throw it inside a building?

Does it obscure the models that are on the roof of that building as well as every accessible floor on the way up?

I would suppose it opens up too much wiggle room to interpretation if it doesn't.

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17 minutes ago, Superfluid said:

This intrigues me, how does smoke work if you throw it inside a building?

Does it obscure the models that are on the roof of that building as well as every accessible floor on the way up?

I would suppose it opens up too much wiggle room to interpretation if it doesn't.

you still need to draw LoF from the smoke origin point to where it is. so a template that land on the ground on one side of the wall doesn't give smoke to the other side of the wall.

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3 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

In N2 players tried to use either of those to avoid shadow zone restrictions. In N3 you could use either to hit enemy troopers that you couldn't otherwise hit, for example a trooper at ground level at the same time as a prone trooper on a nearby rooftop.

If you're talking about something like a missile template i can certainly see that as an issue. Do missile templates have three dimensions? I assume so and I can see spec firing a wall would accomplish what you're describing but i also have no problem with it. Air detonations do sound cheeky.

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On 1/12/2017 at 7:18 PM, Kainsaw said:

1. The same way you do whenever you place the template over a stairwell or on top of scatter terrain - as best you can to illustrate the effect to both players.

2.  If I want to Spec fire a smoke grenade and it requires a horizontal surface to land on and not a vertical one, then it's irrelevant because I can target the adjacent horizontal edge's corner of  the floor or ceiling planes running perpendicular to the wall plane and achieve the same effect.

illustration:

https://imgur.com/a/H0fN9

 

nade template.png

Is that how smoke works, when thrown on ground? It covers the bottom partially and then proceeds to cover the top 100%? that seems insanely exploitative and unintuitive. Is it even compatible with the illustration from wiki on template area of effect? Has this question been answered by CB? Legit curious about this. Seems wrong.

 

Dtw1.jpg

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4 hours ago, Zewrath said:

Is that how smoke works, when thrown on ground? It covers the bottom partially and then proceeds to cover the top 100%? that seems insanely exploitative and unintuitive. Is it even compatible with the illustration from wiki on template area of effect? Has this question been answered by CB? Legit curious about this. Seems wrong.

There's two ways of thinking, and this is just an interpretation of the arguments:

1. I can throw it on any surface that's not strictly vertical and as long as I can draw line of fire within the cone to what's roughly a fist-sized sphere sitting on this surface, it's covered by the smoke.

2. Shooting on terrain has the same requirements as shooting on an enemy trooper; you still need to target a 3x3mm which makes it impossible to balance a grenade perfectly on the edge of a building to have it cover both the top of the building and the bottom.

Personally, I add "besides, the grenade doesn't have a volume so it's theoretically and practically impossible to draw line of sight to it from more than 180 degrees, regardless of where you place it"

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1 hour ago, Mahtamori said:

There's two ways of thinking, and this is just an interpretation of the arguments:

1. I can throw it on any surface that's not strictly vertical

(Granted that these aren't necessarily your own views, but clarifications of the positions, thank you @Mahtamori)

I didn't think "any point on the table" could be taken to mean that at all! :( So maybe I've missed a few things here.


@IJW Wartrader, can you clarify for us exactly what "any point on the table" means again please, making liberal use of restrictive language to explain what sort of targets that are and are not legal, thank you.

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Well, i feel this question rare, but in spanish the rule is not written in the same way on the wiki than english. 

In english the wiki say:

-"Smoke Special Ammunition is a non-offensive ammunition, so it does not require an enemy—or, in fact, any trooper at all—as a target, and can be thrown at any point on the table."

But in spanish it has been written in this way:

-"La Munición Especial Humo es un tipo de munición no ofensiva, por lo que no es necesario tomar a una miniatura como objetivo y se puede arrojar a un punto aislado, solitario o vacío del campo de batalla". the translate to english of this part it would be like this: "... it can be trow to a isolated point , alone or empty of the battleground"

I have been playing that i can fire smoke in a point "in the air" because of this (i usually read the rules in spanish). But i could be mistaken. I hope you will get usefull, this info. @IJW Wartrader @Slowburner

Links to wiki:

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition
http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/es/Munición_Especial_Humo

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9 hours ago, MASTER_EFIALTES said:

"... it can be trow to a isolated point , alone or empty of the battleground"

The comparison is really interesting, thank you @MASTER_EFIALTES.

Myself, I read "... it can be [thrown] to a isolated point , alone or empty of the battleground" as a clarification of being able to target a point that isn't another trooper, unlike other normal BS attacks. But unfortunately, it doesn't much ... illuminate (see how I avoided saying 'throw' there? ;) ) what sort of targets might be prohibited, ie. vertical targets, etc.

I'm no linguist, but it does seem to me that Spanish is a lot more permissive than English (or German, in my limited experience thereof).

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On 01/12/2017 at 6:18 PM, Kainsaw said:

1. The same way you do whenever you place the template over a stairwell or on top of scatter terrain - as best you can to illustrate the effect to both players.

2.  If I want to Spec fire a smoke grenade and it requires a horizontal surface to land on and not a vertical one, then it's irrelevant because I can target the adjacent horizontal edge's corner of  the floor or ceiling planes running perpendicular to the wall plane and achieve the same effect.

illustration:

https://imgur.com/a/H0fN9

 

nade template.png

As @Zewrath pointed out, those three positions will produce different effects. Smoke templates follow the usual template weapon rules including the Blast Focus. So the landing spot on the roof wouldn't affect anything lower than the roof, the spot on the wall wouldn't affect the volume directly above the roof in any way and the spot on the ground would create an angled volume above the roof, depending on how far it is from the base of the wall.

 

On 01/12/2017 at 6:20 PM, Robock said:

As the crow flies. A vertical column of infinite height in both direction (i mean the z axis - or the axis that goes directly away from the center of Earth) that goes through the template center (which coincidentally happen to also be the targeted point).

...

edit to clarify : i'm only answering the practicality element of the question, not the how to apply the rule.

I was partly asking because everyone is assuming that the template goes horizontally. It doesn't matter for a normal template weapon because their volume is spherical and the orientation of the template makes no difference. For smoke it matters because a vertical template is going to produce an infinitely thin 'wall' of smoke.

 

23 hours ago, Slowburner said:

(Granted that these aren't necessarily your own views, but clarifications of the positions, thank you @Mahtamori)

I didn't think "any point on the table" could be taken to mean that at all! :( So maybe I've missed a few things here.


@IJW Wartrader, can you clarify for us exactly what "any point on the table" means again please, making liberal use of restrictive language to explain what sort of targets that are and are not legal, thank you.

From a pragmatic point of view, any surface that's 45˚ or less from horizontal.

 

10 hours ago, MASTER_EFIALTES said:

I have been playing that i can fire smoke in a point "in the air" because of this (i usually read the rules in spanish). But i could be mistaken. I hope you will get usefull, this info. @IJW Wartrader 

 

 

So the smoke grenade continues to hover in mid-air for the rest of the player turn? :( 

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1 hour ago, IJW Wartrader said:

From a pragmatic point of view, any surface that's 45˚ or less from horizontal.

Thank you. :)

Is the 'pragmatic point of view' because of your objection to the smoke template laying a horizontal cylinder from the point on the vertical surface ie. once the target surface gets too steep toward vertical, it's increasingly unlikely to provide cover? 

(If I may say, the rules here just want a simple prohibitive statement added, lest we see desperate players attempting desperate exploits with smoke in the future ... :( )

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Based on WarTrader's clarification, I've adjusted my graphic:

nade template 2.png

The only one that doesn't sit well more me is the mid-wall shot.  I think any grenades thrown to a horizontal surface should apply their area of effect at the bottom of that surface.  seeing as it's not a sticky bomb, and I'm assuming the smoke screen it produces isn't an instant explosion of occluding smog, or else we'd be treating the circular template as a sphere like we do for blast radius.

The idea of a 2d plane of smoke is funny tho.

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13 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

So the smoke grenade continues to hover in mid-air for the rest of the player turn?


Theorically... yes, the templates of the smoke have a infinite altitude, it is like a cylinder that go up and down (altitude it is not always up). I would not argument in a game because of that, it is rare... and may be, it is use the rules to a hight literally level...

Funny paint:  ^-^

Sin título.png

Sin título 2.png

Sin título 3.png

Edited by MASTER_EFIALTES
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On 12/4/2017 at 6:56 PM, IJW Wartrader said:

So the smoke grenade continues to hover in mid-air for the rest of the player turn? :( 

There's an assumption behind this (frankly rather tart ;) ) remark that it might be worth my drawing our attention to.

That the nature of smoke grenades in Infinity - the packaging of the ammunition; the characteristics of the projectile and their behaviour on impact are probably supposed to be very much like smoke grenades today. Myself, I hadn't actually considered this until reflecting on Mr Trader's remark...

Given Infinity's rich setting, I don't think there's any particular reason why we should be expected to make that assumption, but if we do, then a lot of our speculations above - including my own question about surfaces, become rather moot. Consider a familiar 20th Century-type smoke grenade - a canister that can be thrown, and will roll around a bit and take a few seconds to produce a dense cloud of smoke. 

  • SmokeGrenade1.JPGthey'd bounce off walls, and back fall to the ground; so have the rules say you can't target walls
  • even if they do detonate in the air, they'd fall back down again; so have the rules ignore air burst
  • they'd mostly roll off things that aren't horizontal; so have the rules allow only horizontal surfaces as legal targets
  • their smoke eventually forms a cloud around the denotation point; so have the rules define that more clearly as a vertical cylinder

So it all gets a whole lot easier to think about if you just make an assumption that an Infinity Smoke Grenade is the same thing as a normal smoke grenade thrown in every TV action/drama that features a SWAT incursion. 

'Now why didn't I think of that' he said, whilst painting up some smoke grenade-wielding Daturazi Witch Soldiers, who's elite military history can be traced back to the collapse of the Fourth Morat Age, and who now spearhead's the army's of the Evolved Intelligence ... ;) 

 

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6 hours ago, Slowburner said:

There's an assumption behind this (frankly rather tart ;) ) remark that it might be worth my drawing our attention to.

That the nature of smoke grenades in Infinity - the packaging of the ammunition; the characteristics of the projectile and their behaviour on impact are probably supposed to be very much like smoke grenades today. Myself, I hadn't actually considered this until reflecting on Mr Trader's remark...

Given Infinity's rich setting, I don't think there's any particular reason why we should be expected to make that assumption, but if we do, then a lot of our speculations above - including my own question about surfaces, become rather moot. Consider a familiar 20th Century-type smoke grenade - a canister that can be thrown, and will roll around a bit and take a few seconds to produce a dense cloud of smoke. 

  • SmokeGrenade1.JPGthey'd bounce off walls, and back fall to the ground; so have the rules say you can't target walls
  • even if they do detonate in the air, they'd fall back down again; so have the rules ignore air burst
  • they'd mostly roll off things that aren't horizontal; so have the rules allow only horizontal surfaces as legal targets
  • their smoke eventually forms a cloud around the denotation point; so have the rules define that more clearly as a vertical cylinder

So it all gets a whole lot easier to think about if you just make an assumption that an Infinity Smoke Grenade is the same thing as a normal smoke grenade thrown in every TV action/drama that features a SWAT incursion. 

'Now why didn't I think of that' he said, whilst painting up some smoke grenade-wielding Daturazi Witch Soldiers, who's elite military history can be traced back to the collapse of the Fourth Morat Age, and who now spearhead's the army's of the Evolved Intelligence ... ;) 

 

great points Slowburner.  For max realism, every time you throw smoke you cast a dispersion template to determine wind direction, and place the large teardrop originating at lowest horizontal point where the grenade comes to rest, and point the big end in the direction the wind is blowing,,,  (satire)

The actual rules are a really smart mechanic, now that I've had time to chew on it.  Thank you, and Wartrader, and the rest.

 

Now, throwing smoke on stairs and ramps?  My map is basically chutes and ladders...    Also, can I place a D-charge on a rollerskate and kick it down a ramp at a target?

 

 

6 hours ago, Slowburner said:

'Now why didn't I think of that' he said, whilst painting up some smoke grenade-wielding Daturazi Witch Soldiers, who's elite military history can be traced back to the collapse of the Fourth Morat Age, and who now spearhead's the army's of the Evolved Intelligence ... ;) 

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I play YuJing and this smoke discussion has been helpful for my suicidal smoke throwing monks.

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