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Holoecho and courtesy lists

Question

Is there a bug in infinity army with regards to order counts in infinity armies courtesy lists?

Making a list in Infinity army the other day and noticed that courtesy lists with active holoechoes do not show orders. This makes it obvious that holoechoes are in the list and 99% of the time it will be obvious which models have the holoprojector 2 because of this. Given that models in holoecho states are private information this seems like a bug.

 

Example

This List

- Ragik x2, lasiqx2, yasbir (holoechoed as ghulams)  5 regular orders

Produces this courtesy list

-Ghulam x3, lasiqx2.  Three regular orders

Which tells any opponent with a brain that the three ghulams are holoprojector 2's

 

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It’s not a bug, it’s the rules. The status of your orderpool is open information, aka. information you are REQUIRED to share, so handing over a list with fake orders that are never generated would be cheating. The exception to this are units in Hidden Deployment, which have special rules that allows you to hide the order that the unit generates. 

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Yes and no.

The status and expenditure of your Order Pool is always open information but you only reveal:

1. The number of Regular Orders* in it at any one time (Status); and

2. Record/Declare when you spend Regular Orders from  one of your Order Pools (Expenditure).

Your Order Pool is only generated during the Tactical Phase of your turn (ie. at the start of your turn). Therefore, a Courtesy list does not need to state what models are legitimately generating orders *before* the game starts.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Pool

Zewrath has it partially correct. You cannot misrepresent the number of Regular Orders in your Order Pool but a courtesy list is not your Order Pool. A clever opponent might look compare the models you've deployed on the table to your Order Pool and determine that something is hinky but that is something they will only discover as soon as your first turn starts, as that is when your Order Pool is created and must accurately reflect how many models are generating Regular Orders (but not which model is generating which order).

Simply put, it's too hard for the Army Creator to accommodate for the 'starting state' of your Holoprojector models, so it isn't programmed in. I'd suggest you either write out courtesy lists by hand/spreadsheet/whatever or writing a 'fake' list in the list builder and printing that out as your courtesy list. Alternatively, before the game show your opponent 'the models they will see on deployment' (which doesn't include your Reserve model).

 

*Irregular, Lt, and Impetuous orders do not sit within your Order Pool. However, I would argue that it is still Open Information to declare which model is spending those orders as they are spent. It's a matter for another FAQ/Errata as to whether an Irregular Model Holoprojecting as a Regular one (ie. Bashi Bazouk pretending to be a Janissary) must have an Irregular Order counter associated with it (thereby demonstrating that the Janissary is Irregular and thus, not actually a Janissary).

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54 minutes ago, musterkrux said:

Yes and no.

The status and expenditure of your Order Pool is always open information but you only reveal:

1. The number of Regular Orders* in it at any one time (Status); and

2. Record/Declare when you spend Regular Orders from  one of your Order Pools (Expenditure).

Your Order Pool is only generated during the Tactical Phase of your turn (ie. at the start of your turn). Therefore, a Courtesy list does not need to state what models are legitimately generating orders *before* the game starts.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Pool

Zewrath has it partially correct. You cannot misrepresent the number of Regular Orders in your Order Pool but a courtesy list is not your Order Pool. A clever opponent might look compare the models you've deployed on the table to your Order Pool and determine that something is hinky but that is something they will only discover as soon as your first turn starts, as that is when your Order Pool is created and must accurately reflect how many models are generating Regular Orders (but not which model is generating which order).

Simply put, it's too hard for the Army Creator to accommodate for the 'starting state' of your Holoprojector models, so it isn't programmed in. I'd suggest you either write out courtesy lists by hand/spreadsheet/whatever or writing a 'fake' list in the list builder and printing that out as your courtesy list. Alternatively, before the game show your opponent 'the models they will see on deployment' (which doesn't include your Reserve model).

 

*Irregular, Lt, and Impetuous orders do not sit within your Order Pool. However, I would argue that it is still Open Information to declare which model is spending those orders as they are spent. It's a matter for another FAQ/Errata as to whether an Irregular Model Holoprojecting as a Regular one (ie. Bashi Bazouk pretending to be a Janissary) must have an Irregular Order counter associated with it (thereby demonstrating that the Janissary is Irregular and thus, not actually a Janissary).

No, I have it entirely correct. I never claimed what you’re trying to correct me for.

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2 hours ago, Zewrath said:

No, I have it entirely correct. I never claimed what you’re trying to correct me for.

Doesn't really change that you're partially wrong. Order Pool is open information in its current state. If it is your reactive turn your Order Pool is empty and that's the full extent of the public information regarding it that your opponent is entitled to.

You're required to hand over a courtesy list, but that doesn't change that the courtesy list in its current format actually gives away non-open information if you get second turn.

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7 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Doesn't really change that you're partially wrong. Order Pool is open information in its current state. If it is your reactive turn your Order Pool is empty and that's the full extent of the public information regarding it that your opponent is entitled to.

You're required to hand over a courtesy list, but that doesn't change that the courtesy list in its current format actually gives away non-open information if you get second turn.

Again, didn’t say that, so entirely correct. Can we move on please? People attempting semantics are extremely boring.

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OK, let's break this down:

1. A Courtesy List, as defined by the ITS rules is: "All of the Open Information regarding models in your list." (Page 6, ITS 9). I would argue that the statement 'that the presence of models disguised by Holoprojector is Private Information' (Main Rules, pg 15) provides a sufficient exception from inclusion on a Courtesy List (even via implicit deduction).

2. Courtesy Lists are provided to your opponent at the end of the Deployment Phase, before the Tactical Phase of any player's first turn. See: Infinity Wiki: ITS FAQ.

However, I note that the Order Pool only begins to exist at the start of a player's turn (Page 27, Main Rules). While a courtesy list must be composed before said Order Pool is calculated. How can you present Open Information to your opponent if it doesn't exist yet? 

3. The presence of troopers using Holoprojector 1/2 is Private Information. If it was CB's intent that Holoprojectors be easily identified before the game starts, why then do they make a point of indicating that the Holoecho marker is added to a trio of identical models only at the start of your Active Turn and not in deployment (See: Holoecho article on the Wiki)? Of course, this differs from the rules for how players using Holoecho markers must deploy but, again, we ask, why would they write different rules for a similar game state if not for good reason?

4. Finally, the Infinity Army Builder is a great tool but does have some failings. See: Kamau profile, as well as the fact that Courteys Lists with Combat Groups consisting entirely of AD/Hidden Deployment models don't show up even though the number of combat groups you're running is Open Information. So, it's not like we can assume that 'the way the Army Builder does it is entirely correct'.

 

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42 minutes ago, Zewrath said:

Again, didn’t say that, so entirely correct.

you said, and i'll quote : " It’s not a bug, it’s the rules. The status of your orderpool is open information, aka. information you are REQUIRED to share, so handing over a list with fake orders that are never generated would be cheating."

that is incorrect. you are required to share the courtesy list prior to the start of the turn. the correct order pool qty should be "0". Handing a list with fake orders such that it says 5 orders instead of 3 orders is not cheating. What would be cheating is to start your player turn and put 5 orders in your order pool. That is cheating, you cannot add fake orders to your order pool. But prior to the game start your order pool is 0. Since the list is showing open info and the order count is incorrect, then yes it is a bug.

We cannot say the printed value is the initial order count because the very first order count is done near the start of your turn after you had the occasion to move models (with command token or with Free Agent skill). Also as TO can be either HD or as marker (in order to share his order to the pool or not) then we can say the printed open info Order is always potentially wrong/bugged. It is not even converting the irregular orders to regular in Joan of Arc lists.

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39 minutes ago, musterkrux said:

OK, let's break this down:

1. A Courtesy List, as defined by the ITS rules is: "All of the Open Information regarding models in your list." (Page 6, ITS 9). I would argue that the statement 'that the presence of models disguised by Holoprojector is Private Information' (Main Rules, pg 15) provides a sufficient exception from inclusion on a Courtesy List (even via implicit deduction).

2. Courtesy Lists are provided to your opponent at the end of the Deployment Phase, before the Tactical Phase of any player's first turn. See: Infinity Wiki: ITS FAQ.

However, I note that the Order Pool only begins to exist at the start of a player's turn (Page 27, Main Rules). While a courtesy list must be composed before said Order Pool is calculated. How can you present Open Information to your opponent if it doesn't exist yet? 

3. The presence of troopers using Holoprojector 1/2 is Private Information. If it was CB's intent that Holoprojectors be easily identified before the game starts, why then do they make a point of indicating that the Holoecho marker is added to a trio of identical models only at the start of your Active Turn and not in deployment (See: Holoecho article on the Wiki)? Of course, this differs from the rules for how players using Holoecho markers must deploy but, again, we ask, why would they write different rules for a similar game state if not for good reason?

4. Finally, the Infinity Army Builder is a great tool but does have some failings. See: Kamau profile, as well as the fact that Courteys Lists with Combat Groups consisting entirely of AD/Hidden Deployment models don't show up even though the number of combat groups you're running is Open Information. So, it's not like we can assume that 'the way the Army Builder does it is entirely correct'.

 

You’re breaking down a straw man and I’m baffled as to why you’re doing it. Please address why you think you should be able to hand over a courtesy list with 7 orders, when in truth there’s only 5. You can’t. 

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32 minutes ago, Robock said:

you said, and i'll quote : " It’s not a bug, it’s the rules. The status of your orderpool is open information, aka. information you are REQUIRED to share, so handing over a list with fake orders that are never generated would be cheating."

that is incorrect. you are required to share the courtesy list prior to the start of the turn. the correct order pool qty should be "0". Handing a list with fake orders such that it says 5 orders instead of 3 orders is not cheating. What would be cheating is to start your player turn and put 5 orders in your order pool. That is cheating, you cannot add fake orders to your order pool. But prior to the game start your order pool is 0. Since the list is showing open info and the order count is incorrect, then yes it is a bug.

We cannot say the printed value is the initial order count because the very first order count is done near the start of your turn after you had the occasion to move models (with command token or with Free Agent skill). Also as TO can be either HD or as marker (in order to share his order to the pool or not) then we can say the printed open info Order is always potentially wrong/bugged. It is not even converting the irregular orders to regular in Joan of Arc lists.

Finally, someone with an actual argument. Yes I will concede to your point.

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1 hour ago, Zewrath said:

Finally, someone with an actual argument. Yes I will concede to your point.

It's a rephrasing of the third post in the thread. :( 

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Anyway, can we really not heat it up again?

 

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3 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

It's a rephrasing of the third post in the thread. :( 

No it isn’t.

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I am also curious to know what you're take is on this list:

logo_501.png Nomads
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png7  orden_irregular.png2  
logo_26.pngPROWLER (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 33)
logo_26.pngPROWLER Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 31)
logo_4.pngINTRUDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 35)
logo_4.pngINTRUDER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 43)
logo_9.pngBANDIT Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 22)
logo_9.pngBANDIT Boarding Shotgun, E/Mauler / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 26)
logo_10.pngZERO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
logo_10.pngZERO Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
logo_37.pngBRAN DO CASTRO (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)

1.5 SWC | 268 Points

Open in Infinity Army

This list will generate 6 Regular Orders to the Pool, 2 Irregular Orders and 1 Hidden Deployment Order.

The courtesy list will have 0, read them 0, orders in the Order Pool even though 8 of the above orders are going to be guaranteed open information. How is it that this is somehow different and allowed to show the wrong contents on a courtesy list compared to masking a Holo trooper as a trooper of different training yet still getting the Holo trooper's own training even though that's also private information?

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11 hours ago, musterkrux said:

Presented without comment...

HesNotAutisticJustSpecial.jpg

Why are you making unfunny memes? Are you really that butthurt that you were less capable of making arguments than Robock? Sad neck beard is sad.

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Guys, please, it does not go anywhere good.

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