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CannonFodder_mtl

Valerya Gromoz in Druze Sectoral

Question

  • Valerya Gromoz has a fireteam rule stating it can join any fireteam in the Druze sectoral.
  • Scarface & Cordelia can form a Fireteam Duo in the Druze sectoral.

Can we mix Valerya in with Scareface & Cordelia for 3 man link?

Can we create a Duo with Valerya & Cordelia?

 

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I don't think so... The Duo is max of 2 troops... And the "special duo" of Scarface in only with Cordelia... And vice versa... 

 

Mask 

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12 minutes ago, Mask said:

I don't think so... The Duo is max of 2 troops... And the "special duo" of Scarface in only with Cordelia... And vice versa... 

 

Mask 

I thought so but had to ask.

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Well the duo is a fireteam inside the sectorial so it qualifies,  I woud say.
Otherwise we had to apply the same logic of "special" fireteams to basically all the othe teams except pure a pure druze/brawler, making the wording mainly confusing and unnecessary bloated. A simple "can join Druze core/haris/duo and BRawler Haris/Duo" would have been the better solution there.

So yeah, shove gromoz in the duo, replacing either of the turners.

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It's a Duo, so by definition only two models.  So you could Duo Valerya with either Scarface or Cordelia.  Not both at the same time.

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Yeah, but Scarface can only Duo with Cordelia, so a Duo with Valerya will only be legal for Valerya.

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I know you're right because of both your playtesting experience and that the rules work like they say they do except when they don't, but that's not how logical operations work.

Does this mean that Valerya + 3 Brawlers or Velrya + Druze + 3 Brawlers are legal fireteams as well? I.e. can she join any fireteam or can she replace any member of a fireteam?

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1 hour ago, Mahtamori said:

 I.e. can she join any fireteam or can she replace any member of a fireteam?

Nicely put, @Mahtamori. That is exactly the question we need more clearly answered, thank you.

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2 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

I know you're right because of both your playtesting experience and that the rules work like they say they do except when they don't, but that's not how logical operations work.

Does this mean that Valerya + 3 Brawlers or Velrya + Druze + 3 Brawlers are legal fireteams as well? I.e. can she join any fireteam or can she replace any member of a fireteam?

Is Scarface and Cordelia a Fireteam in DBS? Yes.

Can Valerya be in any Fireteam in DBS? Yes.

This is both the intent, and the literal reading of her note. 

 

So Valerya + 1 Druze + 3 Brawlers is legal. Valerya + 3 Brawlers wouldn't be because you'd need a Druze as well.

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So the real wording ought to be she may "take the place of any member of a fireteam" in DBS, not just join them (since the single Druze + others doesn't fulfill the requirements for the special fireteam without Valerya counting as the Druze that's missing).

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If the wording was "...can take the place of any member of a fireteam" people would argue that RAW that means that member of the fireteam would have to both be in the list first and in the fireteam second before she could "take their place". So she couldn't start the game in the fireteam, and it'd take breaking the fireteam and reforming it with her in it (and minus the member she is replacing). Obviously, that's ridiculous.

Words aren't perfect outside maybe a super well written technical manual. Sometimes you just have to use the most reasonable interpretation and accept life isn't perfect.

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And in addition to that, that wording would also let players claim that she can replace the need for a trooper with the Duo Special Skill* in a Duo or the Haris Special Skill in a Haris.

*And yes, it's a typo that Scarface and Cordelia don't have the Duo Special Skill listed.

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1 hour ago, IJW Wartrader said:

And in addition to that, that wording would also let players claim that she can replace the need for a trooper with the Duo Special Skill* in a Duo or the Haris Special Skill in a Haris.

*And yes, it's a typo that Scarface and Cordelia don't have the Duo Special Skill listed.

Idle conversation: Yes, but that requires specifically ignoring one of the Fireteam: Duo or Fireteam: Haris bullet points under Requirements. I do agree that that question is more likely to come up if using the suggested wording, than should someone ask if Valerya can join Scarface AND Cordelia for a 3-man duo with the current wording, but both would require skipping one of the requirements for forming the respective fireteams.

Like I wrote, I don't doubt you - I just don't agree that the rather simple notation on Valerya in Army is sufficient to reach that conclusion on its own.

2 hours ago, Hachiman Taro said:

If the wording was "...can take the place of any member of a fireteam" people would argue that RAW that means that member of the fireteam would have to both be in the list first and in the fireteam second before she could "take their place". So she couldn't start the game in the fireteam, and it'd take breaking the fireteam and reforming it with her in it (and minus the member she is replacing). Obviously, that's ridiculous.

Words aren't perfect outside maybe a super well written technical manual. Sometimes you just have to use the most reasonable interpretation and accept life isn't perfect.

The thought occurred to me, though fireteams aren't created differently during deployment than during gameplay other than not requiring CTs, so I think that line of argument would fall flat. I do note though that QK is the only place I know where a "may join any fireteam" sort of notation exists on Hafza and QK doesn't contain complicated fireteams - for other sectorials they've gone with hashing out the exact configurations for complicated fireteams (and I also note that I've seen questions regarding Joan's special fireteams a few times so that solution isn't foolproof, either).

In either case, done is done and we'll have to live with this informal knowledge of how it works.

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11 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Hafzas and Wallace.

Yes, the latter of which I was not aware of. Neither of which causes the same upset with special requirements that I can find, however, so this is still a new situation.

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3 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Yes, the latter of which I was not aware of. Neither of which causes the same upset with special requirements that I can find, however, so this is still a new situation.

wallace does cause the same upset.

I always thought of model that could be added or joined as being elective models you could add while still needing to have the required parts.

Haris : 1 3rd Grey Rifle and up to 2 Mormaers.

William Wallace can take either the place of the Grey Rifle or of an unused Mormaers, going by the Valerya ruling. But I always thought for the haris to be valid you had to have that 1 3rd grey, also the mormaers haris loadout, and then if you want to fill it up you can add either the 2nd mormaers or add the WW.

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@Robock: Mormaers can form Haris that consist of up to 3 Mormaers, they don't need a Grey (nor a Grey stand-in) to make it valid.

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19 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

@Robock: Mormaers can form Haris that consist of up to 3 Mormaers, they don't need a Grey (nor a Grey stand-in) to make it valid.

ah true, that was only a special haris, in addition to doing normal haris. so valerya case is very new, to be able to count-as any model for fireteam composition purpose.

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For the time being I'll play it as the following:

"Valerya Gromoz can replace any non-character fireteam member in Druze Bayram Security"

My main question was about having a 3 man link with Scarface. But I think Its safe to say that you can't have a third wheel in a duo. This wording still allows a fireteam core without a Druze model, but its not as game breaking as 3 man fireteam lead by a heavy rocket launching Tag. From a game play perspective I don't really see a benefit of having Gromoz duo with with either Scarface or Cordilia.  The only reason I would do that would be to Duo Scarface & Gromoz, then have Nasmats on Cordelia. 

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